Dr. Susan Murphy is Chair of Leadership Development in the Business School at the University of Edinburgh. She was formerly Director of the School of Strategic Leadership Studies at James Madison University and Professor of Leadership Studies. She has published in Leadership Quarterly, Organizational Behaviour and Human Decision Making, Journal of Vocational Behaviour, Journal of Business and Psychology, and the Journal of Applied Psychology. We explore leadership development across the lifespan - a concept with so many possibilities for practitioners and scholars alike.
Resources/Links to Discussion Topics:
A Quote From This Episode
Resources/Authors Mentioned in This Episode
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Dr. Susan Murphy is Chair of Leadership Development in the Business School at the University of Edinburgh. She was formerly Director of the School of Strategic Leadership Studies at James Madison University and Professor of Leadership Studies. She has published in Leadership Quarterly, Organizational Behaviour and Human Decision Making, Journal of Vocational Behaviour, Journal of Business and Psychology, and the Journal of Applied Psychology. We explore leadership development across the lifespan - a concept with so many possibilities for practitioners and scholars alike.
Resources/Links to Discussion Topics:
A Quote From This Episode
Resources/Authors Mentioned in This Episode
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis Podcast. Thanks so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today I have a returning guest. She was one of the original guests on Phronesis back in 2020, probably in April or May of 2020. Susan, we have Dr. Susan Murphy. And she is Chair of Leadership Development in the Business School at the University of Edinburgh. She was formerly Director of the School of Strategic Leadership Studies at James Madison University and Professor of Leadership Studies. She has published in Leadership Quarterly, Organizational Behaviour and Human Decision Making, Journal of Vocational Behaviour, Journal of Business and Psychology, and the Journal of Applied Psychology. We explore leadership development across the lifespan - a concept with so many possibilities for practitioners and scholars alike. And she is in Scotland. And you know, I was reflecting on this Susan, probably, gosh, it was a good 15 years ago, we had about seven to 10 days in Scotland where we bounced on my friend was working in Aberdeen. He was working for an oil company. And so you can imagine us bouncing around. And we ended up in this pub in Glasgow called “Babbity Bowster.” And it was one of the best afternoons I've ever had. We met the owner, Fraser, and he said, Where are you from? We said, the states, and he said, Oh, how long have you been here? We said about seven days. He said, “I bet you've been bouncing around, spending no more than five minutes in any one location, right?” Yes. And he said, “Well, you're gonna sit here today.” And I think we arrived around two, and we watched a football match in a rugby match. And then a bunch of musicians showed up around seven. And I think I was about 8:30 p.m.
Susan Murphy 1:39
That sounds like very much Scotland hospitality, for sure. It's a very unique place. And it's beautiful. It is beautiful. Love it here.
Scott Allen 1:50
Just gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. Well, Susan, thank you so much for checking back in. And I know that, as we were talking about what we could discuss today, you know, you have strategic thinking on your mind. And so I'm excited about this conversation. I haven't had an episode specifically geared toward this specific topic. But obviously, it is an activity that leaders are engaged in all day long. And so, where would you like to begin? What is some kind of foundational concepts that listeners should be aware of? As we begin the conversation about strategic thinking?
Susan Murphy 2:27
Wow, that's a good question. I think strategic thinking...I started here at the University of Edinburgh now ten years ago, and we have is one of our signature courses, strategic leadership. And so, what is it that strategic leaders are responsible for? And so typically, when you think of the strategic leader, you think of the CEO and sort of the C-suite, you know, maybe regional high-level managers, but maybe not in the rest of the organization. But as organizations have become more complex, with lots more uncertainty, and probably more customer-driven, you find that more people need to be thinking about what's going to happen in my part of the organization five years, ten years down the road, how can I set a vision that my team gets around so that we can make the changes we need to be to remain competitive. So that's kind of the start within that area of strategic leadership. And then strategic thinking, you know, as a psychologist, I've always been interested in how people think; I think many of us were inspired by the work on biases by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky. We always like to brag about them because they're also psychologists and economists. And you don't see, and you don't see a psychologist winning the Nobel Prize too often. So that's kind of cool. And so you know, I think, as an undergraduate and even a graduate student, this idea that we don't make decisions by kind of weighing the pros and the cons in a rational way, that we typically have those biased ways of looking at information. This is big today, right? Because with the internet, and social media, we get a feed that builds on our bias of looking for things that confirm our already existing ideas. So as a business leader, you can't think that way. You can't be sitting around a table and thinking so uncritically that you're only looking for information that can confirm what you've already thought. So top-level managers today struggle with, you know, how do I get my people thinking sort of more innovatively, creatively, and strategically, and a lot of times that requires a bit of “futurising.” That's a new word I made up later. I don't know if anyone else uses it, but in the future, you know, I had met this academic colleague probably 20 years ago or so, and he studied mentoring, and he also was a futurist; I said, "How does one become a futurist?" And he said, "You know, you just really look at trends, and you look at the kinds of things people are talking about and where things are going," and he says, "You need to be in that anticipatory space within an organization." So if you think about something like AI recently, you know, AI has been chugging along for years and years. I mean, we had a Steven Spielberg movie called AI. It wasn't until probably about a month ago that people started getting the attention of ChatGPT. And the level of things that it could recreate when you asked specific kinds of questions that were quite good. And I think AI, which has taken a while, is part of our future. And then that's what you asked companies, what if you had a chatbot to run your leadership development program? So what if you typed into ChatGPT develop? For me three different streams of leader development for these employees. What would you include, etc? So that idea of I think we're afraid of the future sometimes, and so we don't think about what it might mean. And so strategic thinking is a bit about, you know, pulling your head up, watching out for biases, some of these other things, pretending you're the futurist.
Scott Allen 6:09
I love it. Okay, so let's, there are a couple of post parts in there. But let's stick to some of these cognitive biases. What are there? They're, like, 170 of them that have been identified, right?
Susan Murphy 6:21
I think there are, but there's also this real I often use in a classroom, which is called "360 Degrees of Bias." So some of them are sort of proactively how you're looking for information. So do you look for confirming information or easy-to-find information or information that everybody's agreeing with, you know, there's a lot of studies around shared information, for example, in operating rooms, if everybody's agreeing. The lone person says, "Wait, I don't think we should do that. Because I think something else is going on," that person will often be ignored. So, there's a bias toward what everyone in the group believes. And that actually could be wrong. And so you have to weigh the two different ideas, even though the frequency of thinking in that way is disparate and everything. And then there are the ones that are kind of, I think in, you know, the Hindsight Bias is, you know, you look at something and say, oh, you know, we should have known or, I mean, maybe it's a little bit similar to Monday morning quarterbacking. That idea, we need to go to the water cooler on Monday and talk about how the game went and everything. But there are so many, and I used to study social cognitive psychology. And so, I was always curious about when we do leadership ratings, for example, what we call the "similar to me" bias; you'd be rated, you'd be rated as a good team member or a good leader if you were similar to your leader. And so you had that kind of affinity in the ratings that would come out. So, we just know there are so many little nuanced pieces you can do to change the way people view information. And so, there's, there's quite a few, I think, I don't know if there's really 360. But I do like the wheel.
Scott Allen 8:04
I sometimes will talk about some of these in some of my sessions or in the classroom, and what I really love, Inattentional Blindness, you know, there's. I'm going to put it in the show notes for listeners; there's a great video online, it's called who done it, you're zoomed into this little murder mystery, and all of a sudden, you kind of finish it, you push pause. You say, “anyone notice anything about this video?” And literally, you know, bears were there at the beginning, and 21 things changed in front of their eyes, literally 21 things, and then they show you the part of the video where all the things that are changing, and people are just blown away. And then you've seen the, and I'll put this in the show notes as well, there's a little paragraph about a doctor working on a patient, and you woo people into the conceptual block that doctors are men, and literally every time a doctor is the person's mother. But, most people are half at least in healthcare, Susan. minds don't see it. So, I always do a couple of those types of activities to say, look, we are all we're all limited. And we have to enter this conversation with a level of humility. And it's so funny that that video with the bear and the suit of it starts with a bear like a stuffed bear in the corner, and then it changes to a suit of armor. And I was in an organization last year, and it was the first day the interns were there. So I showed the video and said, "Did you notice anything?" And this intern, on his first day, said, "Well, I saw a bear change to a suit of armor!" You know, the grizzled. The grizzled employees looked back and said, "There wasn't a bear. What do you saying? And it was just as a great example of, I mean, we have to enter this with a sense of humility and a humble curiosity that we're limited. And we need others to work with others, right?
Susan Murphy 10:09
And I think too, and I don't want to pick on Gen X, But you know, as people sort of age too, because, you know, from cognitive psychology, you have those structures in your brain, that you don't let in new information because you've already got the schema about what something looks like. So that bear doesn't even register because you've had years of experience where there would never be a bear there. There would never be a suit of armor. Why am I? Why am I even looking at that? Somebody new to an organization who's like taking in as much as they possibly can be very vigilant and looking for those nuanced things. And I sometimes think that's where you have the generational clashes in the workplace because Gen Z will come in excited and have those, like, a literal new set of eyes to see things you may haven't seen before. And that's why people do need to listen to one another, you know, maybe Gen Z gets really distracted by lots of different things. And so Gen X can help them sort of focus on everything. But I think that's what it does take teams on these processes. And that's the next module in a course I'm doing for a company here in Scotland is about how to bring strategic thinking to the rest of your team. So we've been working with the leaders on that portion.
Scott Allen 11:25
Because I imagine then, you know, is the leader, and you've seen this plenty of times, is the individual, the person in the position of authority, creating a space where people feel like they have a voice?
Susan Murphy 11:35
, exactly, exactly. Sometimes people will talk about that. And, you know, in terms of psychological safety, can you bring up new ideas, but even in maybe what I'd consider a relatively safe environment, you still run into the issue of either the manager driving the conversation and constraining it, yep. Maybe unintentionally, because they're not thinking as broadly as maybe some of the others in the group, or the group members are so attuned to what the manager is saying they try to with that mirroring of what his or her thoughts are. And so one of the things that we're working on with them is what we call, like, in coaching conversations where you don't solve the problem, but you ask really good questions. And with your own opinions, you sort of hedge a bit. Rather than saying, you know, I know for 100% sure that our market share is going to decrease, you say, from the data I've examined, you know, I see this trend. What do the rest of you think? Do you see the data similarly? Or, if you were someone else, how would you see it differently? So really, interrogating them about their thoughts and getting them to think independently versus having to lockstep behind the leaders thought processes?
Scott Allen 12:52
Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, you had mentioned something so wonderful. We knew we had dipped our toes into this ChatGPT space. , it is. It's very, very fascinating to me; I've done been doing some. I've been running a course, Susan, for the last five years on the future of work. And we take students to an organization like Goodyear or Key Bank...It might be a Fortune 500, or it could be a startup. What's fascinating about some of those conversations is that oftentimes when I'm having these conversations in organizations, people are not aware of those trends. There may be a couple of people who are the person from IT, or their digitization group. Is we get this, we know about blockchain. , we know all about algae. Yes, we know about it. They don't have a room filled with people who know about those different technologies and how they're being leveraged in banking or healthcare.
Susan Murphy 13:54
Because you'll have people I've asked a couple of companies recently, and they'll say, "Oh, our Business Intelligence Group sort of deals with that a bit," you know, but it's how do they bring that back to the organization then? , so what are the other things I sort of focus on when we do strategic thinking is something I picked up recently, which is called ecosystem mapping. Because I, I teach a course on strategic leadership and I always use Mary Barra at GM because I find her to be really a fascinating leader. She comes into GM when they know they're going in front of Congress for the ignition switch problem. That wasn't her fault. But she will be there talking about how she'll guarantee going forward that they won't harm people. That's one of the things that she did, and imagine talking to your shareholders. I do another case, too, with Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo and she was changing the nature of the organization from just, you know that, as they famously said, one-time selling bottled sugar water to Do you know sustainability concerns, etc. But Mary Barra, when you map the ecosystem, two things are affecting cars right now. One is the ownership model; because of increased urbanization, you know, many young kids even aren't getting driver's licenses today; they're going to live in urban areas where maybe they'll get a car, eventually, maybe they'll share it with someone, you know, maybe they'll rent it in some way. So GM has moved to think about these new ways of many cities are going to own cars like city bikes, and things like that, where you take them out. And then the other piece is technology. GM has always been a technology company; think of OnStar. Think of how long ago that OnStar service was, you know, yet linking to that. So she says, you think about it as technology and new ownership models that opens you up to a new ecosystem where you're thinking about things like cyber criminals, you know, can cyber criminals hack into our cars, there's a book called The Passengers, where somebody hijacks these cars, and it goes on from there. But you know, so it's quite, you know, so how did she move from kind of this tech company, and then go full force into automated driving, as well as Evie. And you know, I don't even know if you knew this, you know, what GM has gone into now, their newest thing is no, no, it isn't GM Energy. Oh, wow. So when you have a charger at your home, for your car, that charger would also help you if the electricity went out because of a snowstorm, a tornado, a hurricane, or whatever else happens in the US. And so they're providing energy in that way. So every technology is also being leveraged. So they're very connected. They're thinking of themselves much differently, but they've brought along all of their stakeholders. And that's the other piece of strategic thinking is sometimes you can get ahead of yourself. They use the example of Kodak, they invented digital photography. But they couldn't get the shareholders and the rest of the stakeholders to say that was what they did. And so they missed that opportunity because they weren't defined in that way. But I think the whole area of strategic thinking is just fascinating because there's so much work to be done. And some companies are doing a good job, and some companies one day fall asleep. The book Losing the Signal about BlackBerry is a perfect example.
Scott Allen 17:32
I was in LA, working with an organism last fall, and I looked up at a building a Blackberry on it, Susan.
Susan Murphy 17:43
I don't know if that's in Century City or in Westwood.
Scott Allen 17:47
I remember seeing that I was in Irvine. But
Susan Murphy 17:53
That's pretty funny. And you said, "What?"
Scott Allen 17:58
Well, it is fascinating. And at least how I communicated sometimes is, do we have a somewhat tech-fluent workforce that they're not the individuals coding individuals? But are they aware of these trends and what's happening in the ecosystem? And what's specifically happening on the margins? So many people like fintech, for example, nipping at large financial institutions. And you've got big tech also that is trying to enter that space as well. , financial services, Apple or Amazon?
Susan Murphy 18:36
And that's the question. We ask people sometimes like, "What if Google started building houses? Became a house building company?" I said to the people the other day, and I said, "What if Google started distributing water?"What would they have over you that you don't have as a water distributor? Those kinds of questions.
Scott Allen 18:59
I will; I'll steal that. You know, whether it's Amazon or Google, or some of these large tech organizations, Microsoft, IBM, they have, again, think of relatively how quickly IBM moved into healthcare. Now they've run into some challenges there. It didn't, I think, turn out to be everything they'd hoped it would. But some of these organizations pivoting into, well, Amazon has pivoted into healthcare and prescription medications. And they're using some of the base technology of AI and some other functionalities that their expertise can be leveraged in a new domain, and they can enter pretty quickly, right?
Susan Murphy 19:42
But it is, I mean, but if you have a workforce who says, Oh, that's not who we are, that's not what we do, and are afraid of those changes. It can be problematic. IBM has introduced AI in their human resource function. And what's been interesting about that is As they probably reduce their HR function now by 30%. So chatbots take care of a lot of the more mundane processing or question answering. Now, the hiring skill matrices, all that sort of stuff is, you know, they're moving more towards, you know, human-assisted sort of AI. But, yes, I think, you know, it's not strategic thinking. But if you're not thinking this way, how will AI disrupt my business? I think it's really important, but I think there's a lot more AI than people think about on a day-to-day basis. For sure. I think it's just ChatGPT woke everyone up from their slumber.
Scott Allen 20:38
It's definitely a game-changer. And I've been listening to a few podcasts lately with some of the folks I forget the gentleman who wrote the textbook, I think he's at Berkeley, Stuart Russell, might be his name. But some podcast episodes with him recently, and even some of the concerns he's having about, you know, as we move from like a Narrow AI (ANI), where you have a software that can play Go or can play chess or can elevate the algorithm of what you're going to click Next. Because it's an article about why and, you know, to more of a general, Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), and some of the concerns around ethics. And, again, to your overall point, are we looking at these trends? And are we scanning the landscape and thinking as a futurist would? What would happen if Google entered the space?
Susan Murphy 21:33
So sometimes, I think, and I have sort of an idea around some of the foundational skills that it takes to be a good strategic thinker and, and one of those, I mean, they all get down to psychology ones, like the need for cognitive closure, you know, the people have got to make that snap judgment. Snap judgments are good, maybe in a crisis or when it's something quite mundane. But when it's something bigger to sort of close off the decision-making process, because not only do you want to make a decision quickly, but you're uncomfortable with the uncertainty, an undecided decision leaves, that you're going to kind of force it. So that's one of the things we talk a lot about is how do you suspend that difficulty with not knowing what's going to happen, you know. So people do scenario planning, of course, and then they might think about the probabilities of those different scenarios, to just relax. And you'll know the kind of people you work with, like, I'm a person who doesn't like to shut anything down until the last possible moment, like I have zero need for closure. Sometimes when I'm submitting a bill payment, I don't go through the three levels of submitting because I've already made the first submission. I know; my closure isn't even there. It's like I superficially look, but the idea there, too, is you'll have people who want to shut things down. So you always need that mix of people. And they have to learn from one another, you know, because you can't leave things up in the air forever. But so that need for cognitive closure, a comfortableness. With uncertainty, I know the Korn Ferry assessment I use is big on that. And you can really see the difference. It's a big skill that people need in organizations. The other one is kind of divergent thinking; I do want to do one of the multiple uses tasks for my students. And so I say to them, I'm gonna give you two minutes. And I showed them a picture of, you know, our red classic red brick. And I say you have two minutes to develop as many use as you can for this brick. And so then they go, go, go, go go. And so I've been doing this for a few years, and the most I've ever got was maybe 1818 answers, but the least is around six. So the difference between six and 18 is kind of startling. So I have the class sort of share. And what you hear from people who only could come up with six answers, was this constrained thinking around? I thought you could only use it for building because it was a brick; I thought that would be the rules. And so I was just trying to follow the rules. And the other people were using it as artwork, doorsteps, just this list of things. And you could see the people had only six or seven; their eyes would open wide and say, "Wow. I never really thought about...I had a student come up to me afterward and say, "How do people think like that? Seriously? How can we open our minds?" I just said, "Think no rules think crazy think as you know," and I think that's like kind of in the whole idea of ideation a bit, that whole design thinking sort of modeling too. But those are the basic psychological skills, I think in some ways as being a creative thinker, divergent thinker, not having to need cognitive closure too quickly. And then also the idea of dealing with uncertainty and probably paradox as you talked about. And your previous podcast.
Scott Allen 24:51
Wendy Smith The both and thinking the really nice job of as we were talking and for listeners Since the episode with Wendy Smith, it's a really interesting conversation because that either, or that binary thinking puts us into two boxes, it shuts us off from seeing option C or D. Both and thinking takes us to new places and new options. , completely weren't there? How do we help build those habits of mind?
Susan Murphy 25:25
I think they're really tough. I mean, you have to remind people I mean, you know, I was, I was reading something the other day about unconscious bias training. And the biggest problem with that is it's basically telling people you have biased thinking, but it doesn't really tell you much about what you could do about it as an organization; it tells you to do better. But what could the organization be doing? So whenever you're doing strategic planning, I, you know, and strategizing, I think, the habits in those group meetings are around setting up a structure where people can think as divergently as possible; I just went through an ecosystem mapping process with two of these companies recently. And it was really interesting to kind of push them to the limits of the future. And then you'll have people talk a little bit with, well, how can we do both? How can we be both customer-focused and also technology-focused? And then you talk about, well, how would you do that? How can you think of both of those simultaneously going forward? So I mean, part of it is alerting people; they know that they do this, giving them a few tricks and tools. There's another tool that I'm getting used next session with my group, and it's called SCAMPER. It's an acronym. I can't explain it to you very much. But it's a way to break apart an issue, and it's been used in marketing. It's a little bit like design thinking about, you know, you break it down like a problem you're having to these seven different things. Maybe you can insert in the, in materials, the SCAMPER model, there are a couple of videos that are really good on it.
Scott Allen 26:59
Oh, for sure. For sure. I also, you know, back to our conversation about technology. I was talking with Dave Day, and Jonathan Reams the other day. We were - David had written a foreword to Jonathan's book about adult development and leadership. And so we were ideating and having this conversation, and we were talking about how to use technology and leverage technology to aid in development. And when you think about like the Apple Watch, or you think about another kind of micro-reminders...
Susan Murphy 27:32
Nudges - I guess most people call them nudges. Organizations.
Scott Allen 27:37
exactly. And so, how do we design technology that might nudge? Okay, where have you seen either binary thinking today? You could talk on any number of different topics.
Susan Murphy 27:50
And that's in the habit, you know, the books, you know, the habit books by all those different people. There are lots of different authors. ,
Scott Allen 27:55
it'll baby tiny habits. And, micro, micro tiny atomic!
Susan Murphy 28:01
It is quite funny because that's why leadership is sometimes hard to talk about in development, because I always use like, like golf. No one says, "I want to get better at golf." They say, "I want to putt better, I want to do a three-foot putt better, or a 10-foot putt better. I want to use my nine iron better" - you know there's you get very specific and even more specific than that, it's my backswing or but I think there are people in that technology space. So when I went to the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychologists (SIOP) last year in Seattle conference, there was all the technology there. And so there's been for a long time you're on a leader development path and an organization like Rolls Royce, for example. And they will tell you, "Okay, you said you want to work on these three skills. Here are some things you might read, and here are some things you might do. How's that going?" And I think that's going to become more and more ubiquitous, both because of the technology is available and tech it because our leadership programs have become so individualized, you know, I mean, just like our Apple Watch says, "Susan, it's time to stand up" or Gosh, "You didn't make it very far on your activity goals today!" Try again tomorrow. It's going to be like that.
Scott Allen 29:14
Well, think of how individualized that's become, right? It used to be a blanket statement, "Hey, humans walk X number of steps a day." And we have this technology that has sliced that up into millions. And promoting that behavior. And that shift and, from a developmental standpoint, or just building the habit of mind, to your point. I sometimes think what we're asking of people is so large that that might be part of our problem. We've had this leader development thing for and similar with weight loss, right? I mean, exactly...you are pinged with what you need to focus on "Okay, I'm gonna get to the gym five days a week fast until noon." And that's the right. Those two things are the win. And the byproduct might be weight loss. But that's the win. As we begin to wind down, are there any resources you would like to turn individuals on to that you found very useful in this topic?
Susan Murphy 30:16
Well, one of the groups I'm working with right now is using the book; it's kind of a compendium of HBR article called Thinking Strategically. Nice. So that's, that's good. Um, there's another book called Reflection. And that's a little bit about spending time having those post mortems in your head with, you know, in terms of how something went a lot of times with, with people, and you probably do the same thing, people often focus on why the mistakes were made versus what went well. And so by looking at things, you can start picking up what it felt like when you did it right. What did we do differently there? Oh, that's right, that did really help in the quality of our decision. So I think the book reflection and then the HBR book.
Scott Allen 31:03
As we wind down, as you know, I always ask guests what they've been listening to, reading, or streaming and what's caught your attention recently, listeners might want to know about.
Susan Murphy 31:14
I think the big thing I've been reading recently because I teach a couple of classes on data and people analytics. The other one is data and analytics for leaders. One of the books is called Data Feminism. And the other book is called The Equality Machine. Because if we think we can go into the future with only 30%-25% of women being involved in technology, which is going to drive our entire world, we're going to be in a world of trouble is what it's going to be I mean, you just can't leave people out. And it's like you said when you were talking about everyone doesn't need to be a coder; there are so many things that you can understand on different levels, but it means you have to be open to technology, you have to be just open to numbers, you know, what does this mean? What does this look like? Maybe is this an average? Or what are trends that we look at? So it's just it's a bit of a mindset change, but I think we have to do a lot more. One of my kids goes to school. And there's only one girl in his computing class - he's a junior in high school. And I said that's a failure of the schools. You know, it's a failure of the country here in Scotland; they want to be this digital capital. But you have to think of ways to get everyone involved. You can't make it a gendered thing. And in the 1980s, when you had 30% of computer majors as women, and now you have 11 or 14%, you know you've done something to dissuade people from entering that arena. But anyway, they're quite interested in thinking about it, and the date of feminism starts with basically the premise of Hidden Figures, the idea that women did computing, women were the computers, because there were no computers at that time. And then women started programming those computers, so this idea that they were out of the whole process is interesting. But anyway, the equality machine is one, and then data feminism.
Scott Allen 33:11
I love it. I'll put those...have not heard of those. Very, very important. Very, very important topic. Because, to your point, even subconsciously, you have these programmers building systems that move, right? And, you know, we talk about bias, algorithms, and all these different things.
Susan Murphy 33:31
But it goes even further. Thank you so much. This was fun. It always goes by so fast.
Scott Allen 33:39
I know. I know it flies. Alright, bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai