Dr. Paul Hibbert is Professor of Management at the University of St Andrews. He is also an Honorary Professor at the University of Auckland Business School, a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy, the Chartered Management Institute, the British Academy of Management, and the Academy of Social Sciences. He earned his MBA and Ph.D. from the University of Strathclyde in Scotland.
Paul researches reflexive practice and processes of organizing and learning to develop insights for managers and leaders. His research has been recognized by awards from the Academy of Management, the Australia and New Zealand Academy of Management, and the British Academy of Management. His work is published in international journals such as Academy of Management Learning & Education, Journal of Management Education, Journal of Management Studies, Leadership Quarterly, Management Learning, Organizational Research Methods, and Organization Studies. His book How to be a Reflexive Researcher was published in 2021.
Paul is widely involved in leadership and service to journals and learned societies. His editorial roles include: Editor-in-Chief Academy of Management Learning & Education; co-Editor-in-Chief, British Journal of Management, former Associate Editor and current editorial board member of the Journal of Management Education and Management Learning; and editorial board member of Organizational Research Methods. He is the former Chair of the Academy of Management’s Management Education and Development Division.
Connecting with Dr. Paul Hibbert
A Quote From This Episode
Resources/Authors Mentioned in This Episode
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Dr. Paul Hibbert is Professor of Management at the University of St Andrews. He is also an Honorary Professor at the University of Auckland Business School, a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy, the Chartered Management Institute, the British Academy of Management, and the Academy of Social Sciences. He earned his MBA and Ph.D. from the University of Strathclyde in Scotland.
Paul researches reflexive practice and processes of organizing and learning to develop insights for managers and leaders. His research has been recognized by awards from the Academy of Management, the Australia and New Zealand Academy of Management, and the British Academy of Management. His work is published in international journals such as Academy of Management Learning & Education, Journal of Management Education, Journal of Management Studies, Leadership Quarterly, Management Learning, Organizational Research Methods, and Organization Studies. His book How to be a Reflexive Researcher was published in 2021.
Paul is widely involved in leadership and service to journals and learned societies. His editorial roles include: Editor-in-Chief Academy of Management Learning & Education; co-Editor-in-Chief, British Journal of Management, former Associate Editor and current editorial board member of the Journal of Management Education and Management Learning; and editorial board member of Organizational Research Methods. He is the former Chair of the Academy of Management’s Management Education and Development Division.
Connecting with Dr. Paul Hibbert
A Quote From This Episode
Resources/Authors Mentioned in This Episode
About Scott J. Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in Practical Wisdom for Leaders today. My guest is Dr. Paul Hibbert. He is a Professor of Management at the University of St. Andrews. He is also an honorary professor at the University of Auckland Business School, a fellow of the Higher Education Academy, the Chartered Management Institute, the British Academy of Management, and the Academy of Social Sciences. He earned his MBA and Ph.D. from the University of Strathclyde in Scotland. Paul researches reflexive practice and processes of organizing and learning to develop insights for managers and leaders. His research has been recognized by awards from the Academy of Management, the Australia and New Zealand Academy of Management, and the British Academy of Management. His work is published in international journals such as Academy of Management Learning and Education, Journal of Management Education, Journal of Management Studies, Leadership Quarterly, Management Learning, Organization Research Methods, and Organization Studies. His book ‘How to be a Reflexive Researcher’ was published in 2021. Paul is widely involved in leadership and service to journals in learned societies. His editorial roles include Editor in Chief Academy of Management Learning and Education, Co-editor in chief British Journal of Management, former Associate Editor and current editorial board member of both the Journal of Management Education, and Management Learning, and editorial board member of Organizational Research Methods. He is the former chair of the Academy of Management's management education, and development division. Sir, wow. There is so much in there that is so incredibly impressive, but I'm going to start in a spot that may not be one that you would expect. Now, Strathclyde is in Glasgow, and probably one of the best afternoons I have had in my life was in Glasgow at a pub. But we stayed above the pub, it was called Babbity Bowster. And we got there, we arrived, my wife and I arrived. And Fraser, the owner, looked at us and said, “How long have you been in Scotland?” And we said, “About seven days?” And he said, “Where are you from?” And we said, “The states.” And he said, “Oh, I bet you've been bopping around not spending any more than three minutes in any one location for the last week.” We said, “Yes.” And he said, “Well, you're going to sit here and watch the world.” And we had just the most incredible. We watched a football match, we watched a rugby match. A whole bunch of musicians came in at about 7:00 P.M and played music. And I think I was in bed by about 8:30. (Laughs)
Paul Hibbert 2:46
You were done.
Scott Allen 2:48
So, when I think of Glasgow, I think of that experience and it was just such a wonderful, wonderful experience. I'm so appreciative of your time today. Obviously, you have really, really done so much work for so many incredible organizations, published in the best journals in the world. And it's an honor to have you with us today. Before we begin, because our topic today is vulnerability and leadership, but before we begin, what do listeners need to know about you, maybe something that's not in your bio, that you'd like listeners to know?
Paul Hibbert 3:21
Oh, that's a great question, isn't it? I wish I prepared something for that one. I think that’s a tricky one. It's hard to think of something interesting. I know I can tell you, I don't know if you remember the Republican attacker that pictured the terrible slum, and said, “If you vote for the Democrats, you'll end up living somewhere like this.” They were smart enough not to pick an American location because that would really upset people, so they picked a place in the UK for this slum and it was where I live between the ages of 13 and 18. So, there you are. I featured in a Republican campaign, I never intended to.
Scott Allen 3:59
Wow, that is very interesting. I had never heard of this, that they featured a place in the UK as the ‘slum,’ quote-unquote.
Paul Hibbert 4:08
That was it. Yeah.
Scott Allen 4:09
Wow. Wow. And that's where you grew up. And do you have fond memories?
Paul Hibbert 4:13
No, terrible place. That leads me into thinking about vulnerability my whole lifetime. A lot of vulnerability going on there.
Scott Allen 4:20
Oh, wow. Well, let's jump into this. I know you have a recent article that you co-authored with some colleagues in organization studies. And the topic today is vulnerability and leadership. So, bring us into this topic. What are some foundational pieces that we probably need to know? And what are some other ways that you're thinking about this? A quick clip from that article that I really enjoyed was you said, “While vulnerability has traditionally been regarded as a weakness, argue for a reconceptualization in which vulnerability is instead thought of as providing the potential for generative learning in the right context so that vulnerability can spark learning.” That might not be where you want to start, but that caught my eye. I love it because I think, at times, we think of the great person who is filled with armor and incapable of feeling and emotion, and that's just simply not the case. So vulnerability and leadership, what are some foundational things we need to know?
Paul Hibbert 5:26
Well, you let me nicely into a good starting point; let's think about what is going on when we talk about vulnerability in the first place. And I gave you a nice example from my past. There are two kinds of vulnerability, one of those is structural vulnerability. That's just inhabiting a situation of risk, and danger, and it's no good to you. The other kind is elective vulnerability. That's the vulnerability you choose to engage with knowing that you want to learn, and change, and grow. And you cannot change, grow, and learn if you don't put yourself into the situation and be willing to adapt based on what you experience. And that means engaging your whole self in those situations, thinking about what's going on with your body, your emotions, your rational thought, and how you relate to other people. It all comes into the mix, into helping us think about how we have this potential for learning and growth, if we're fully engaged in a situation. And leaders, of course, who have the aura of armored persona, or something like that, actually, they're doing themselves and others a disservice because they're not fully in the situation. They can't live and change, they can only present this one way of being a leader, and that's too limiting.
Scott Allen 6:35
Well, I love the phrasing of having some agency and putting ourselves in the situation. There was an American basketball coach named John Wooden, and he said, “If you're not making mistakes, then you're not doing anything.” I'm positive that a doer makes mistakes. And an individual who's putting themselves out there, we're not talking about this structural vulnerability, but this is more of a choice for an individual, to put themselves into these, almost we could call them edge experiences where we don't know how this is going to turn up, we don't know what's going to happen or how it's going to come out, but we're willingly putting ourselves in that position, correct?
Paul Hibbert 7:19
Yeah, I think so. And I think that's also something that's an essential characteristic of something worth calling leadership because, if you know what's going to happen, you know how to process the scheme; that’s management. Leadership is where you're on the edge, and when you need to find your way, when you're doing some navigating, and failing your way forward, and trying to bring other people with you, recognizing that, actually, some of that ‘finding the way’ depends on them helping you to find the direction. That's the other part of vulnerability. It's accepting that you are not the complete package; you're not going to be able to do it all. You need to work with other people to find the best way forward there on the edge of things. But, of course, there is a kind of overlap sometimes between this elective, this choice to be vulnerable, and straying into these structural situations. Anybody who has a significant leadership position sometimes finds they're in a situation they didn't expect that just feels like danger. You could find yourself in some of the roles I've had in the past. We have a traditional university structure here where you rotate into senior leadership roles, you rotate back out again, and you breathe a huge sigh of relief as you rotate back out, let me tell you. But being vice principal for education as I was for a term means that you are looking after student welfare as well as education in our system. And sometimes, they go through some really tough stuff. And when you have to work with them and their parents to help them through that, that's really eye-opening. It's not what you expected to do. And you have to admit then the two kinds of vulnerability are playing together. You put yourself in there, willing to try and learn and do your best, knowing you're incomplete. And also, you realize there's something here that maybe you can't fix in the situation.
Scott Allen 8:59
Hmm. When I think of some of the contextual factors that may present themselves, whether that be something that we've experienced in recent years like COVID-19 or some of the rapid change that has occurred because of digitization or globalization, would those be some of those structural factors?
Paul Hibbert 9:16
But also, just the fact that what goes on in young people's lives means, statistically, you'll encounter some very difficult problems. It's a fact that we have in our university students with severe mental health issues.
Scott Allen 9:29
Yes.
Paul Hibbert 9:29
And some of those will try to hurt themselves, and you might have to be part of the system that's trying to help them through those difficult things. So, those are things that just, statistically, come at you from the structure, as well as the kind of a fixed package, and larger scale things like COVID and crises of that kind of nature. So yes, there's a mixture of things, but it's unpredictable. That's the real stressor here about vulnerability, I think, it's accepting that you're not going to know, actually, and is being willing to use your whole person to try and learn, and grow from that not knowing, and to work better through it. And it's counterintuitive sometimes. We are, especially in academia, we like to think that our bodies are just brain taxis just transporting this intellect around for us, but there's more than that going on. When people say they've got a gut feel they're right, the brain, gut connection is quite strong, other parts of our body, the way we understand it that interacts. And often, our fastest way of learning is through emotions, but we can use those wrongly as well. So being in touch with that matters too.
Scott Allen 10:41
The phrasing you've used has been really, really beautiful. I'm getting a sense of the whole person. That it's not just the brain than it is the whole person being present in this moment. Would you talk a little bit about that as another way for us to kind of scaffold up this topic?
Paul Hibbert 11:00
So, thinking about ourselves on several levels. So, starting with embodiment, and thinking about how we're aware of what goes on in our bodies. The term interception. How you're aware of what your digestion is doing, your heart rate, maybe feelings of pain, or stress. And all of those interact with how you feel about yourself in a given moment, and they drive a strong connection to your emotion, this next level of thinking about things. And when we come to think about emotions, I'm mostly focusing on motions that become moral, where we concern for others, and thinking about the ways in which there are two kinds of learning that those moral emotions lead to, and it's important not to get the wrong one. So, moral emotions give you either a fast association where something is recognized as a danger or an opportunity, and you kind of engage with it, but they also give you a slower invitation to appraise a situation, to say, “Whoa, something's going on here, I need to know what that is.” And what happens sometimes, in pressured situations, is we're so used to fast association, “I've spotted the problem,” react. There we are. When actually, you don't need to react fast, you need to learn to slow things down and respond to emotional invitation in a different way. If you've got that, we go up to the next level, and now we're ready to think about the situation. I'm there, I'm [Inaudible 12:21] what my body's telling me. I’ve thought about how emotions are leading me quickly into the situation, and now I can think about what's going on. And recognizing that, as I do that, I'm using my full experience from the past, which might not be limited to the context I'm in. It's part of the reason I encourage students here and elsewhere where I've taught to read widely and outside the subject. Expand your mind through entertaining different kinds of scenarios through literature as you can, through real experience, if any experience is real enough, I guess. Our whole experience is helping us to encounter that situation. And then, even then, if we have enough time, recognizing that's not going to be completed enough either. And so, then we turn to relationships and think about how we engage with people, but on the level of dialogue, not discussion. The key difference is, the discussion is, “We're going to get to the right answer.” Dialog says, “We don't know. What way could we build up our knowledge here between us?” That's the root of four levels that I'm looking across when I'm thinking about how people learn in these vulnerable situations.
Scott Allen 13:27
Hmm. Even in your own leadership positions that you've assumed at the university, or elsewhere because you've been heavily involved in a number of different organizations, do you have a story of a time when you experienced that yourself? Where maybe there's a moment where you, in real-time, are experiencing those four levels of engagement? It's fascinating because I think… Would that be a habit of mind? Would it be a way of being that I can now train myself to be present in some of these stressful moments? And truly observing those different levels that I am in dialogue right now, I'm not in discussion, right? I'm not jumping to the answer, I am engaging in dialogue. Talk about that. I find it fascinating because I think it's so incredibly valuable, but maybe we start with a story of your own. Can you think of a time where, in the moment, you were thinking, “Okay, heart rate, salivating, I'm getting triggered”? (Laughs)
Paul Hibbert 14:32
Yeah. A good example would be… I'm trying to think of a story I can tell without telling somebody else's story if you know what I mean. Thinking about a student who might be involved in something like that and their circumstance. Thinking about a student who had maybe had some serious personal difficulties I won't go into, we're trying to fix their degree record and make sure they can graduate in that particular ceremony that's coming up. There are all kinds of complex problems, and the immediate reaction is to say, “We can't fix this.” Just the answer is no. But then you realize that you are having this tension and are edgy, anyway, because the graduation is coming, you're preparing for this. You're a dean, you've got 2,000 names to learn to pronounce on the way to this, and there's other stuff going on in your head right now. So, how am I going to help out the student? There's no answer. So, you don't have a ready fix for that. So you recognize that tension in your body, and also that you recognize that you are angry, is an important thing. That's admitting it. I’m angry to be bothered by this problem, and I've got all this other stuff going on. And you say, “Hang on a minute, why is that anger there?” Well, that anger is not to do with a student, I want to help students; that's my job, it's actually because of this other pressure. So I'm recognizing where my emotion is coming from by playing between the body and the emotion a little bit there, and seeing the way the tension [Inaudible 15:46] that makes sense. I’m being more analytical about it now than I was at the time, I have to tell you, but everything was emotion. And then you come to thinking about what you might have done in the past for these kinds of circumstances and play that out. And then think, “Actually, I've got this amount of time to sort this out, I don't need to take the decision now. I can go call on a few people, bounce this around, and say, ‘What do we do? How do we fix this? How do we help this person out?’” And eventually, we find a creative answer to that and the student graduates on time without breaking any rules, thank God. The one thing you can’t do is break rules, that's not allowed. But it’s that kind of thing. The real thing is when you've got two kinds of timings available to you, like I talked about before, you don't recognize which one you've got. It’s having the trigger of rapid association, “It’s a problem, fix it.” Actually, what it's saying is, “This is a puzzle, investigate it.” It's a difference.
Scott Allen 16:41
I love that phrasing, ‘This is a puzzle, investigate it.’ Oh, that's wonderful. Okay. So, what else, as we kind of build up the conversation, what else do listeners need to be knowing when it comes to this topic of vulnerability and leadership? What else comes to mind for you?
Paul Hibbert 16:57
Yeah. I think an important thing is to bear in mind that you can't be fully engaged as your whole person all the time, you'd be exhausted. You can't. If you think about where we are now, if I was asking you to pay continuous attention to how your body is feeling, your emotions, and the thoughts that are passing, and, “Who should I be talking to?” You’d just be overwhelmed. So, it's recognizing there is some everyday business that doesn't require that. And it's recognizing when you have that feeling that indicates something else is going on, and you need to think about, “What else might be in play?” And “How can I get back into this?” And often, that's going to be noticed in your body or in your emotions, first of all, because we don't pay much attention to our bodies generally, because we’re used to, actually, once you get to my age, you’re used to something hurting all the time. If you’ve run in the last three months, something's hurting. So, we tend to ignore our bodies, but you spot your emotions or, at least, know you are switched on by some things. So, when that happens, and you're in normal work situations, look at why you're emotionally charged. And it might be there is some fast reaction that's required, but normally not. We all know the difference if we stop between a fire alarm and a strange noise. It’s similar, but something else is going on. So it's just recognizing that difference is the real key thing. And I think there's so much work to be done with emotions, in particular, and moral emotions that give us different ways into a situation and think about who's involved in it at the same time.
Scott Allen 18:25
Well then, talk about that. I think it's level four that you mentioned, which is now we're engaging with others, right? Because now, not only, as a parent, for example, it's difficult to keep my own shop in order, but now that there are five of us in the system, that's more difficult. S,o talk a little bit about that now engaging with others in this relationship.
Paul Hibbert 18:49
Yeah, several things going on there. And I really like the example of your family, Scott, that’s so helpful. I hope you’ll agree with me when I say this next thing; otherwise, I'm in real trouble. But when people decide to get married and have a family, they're opening themselves up to change radically, and they don't know how they're going to change, but they know it's going to happen.
Scott Allen 19:08
Yes.
Paul Hibbert 19:08
Now, that's a bit like what goes on when we enter into dialogue. We're saying, “I expect us to come to a different understanding between us, and we don't know what that will be.” That means I have to be open to changing my mind, perhaps, quite radically, as we find some new way of looking. And that requires quite a few things to be set up for it to work for us. One of which is you need a situation of trust in which the people that you're working with, you can be sure, have a mutual interest in the area you’re talking about and will have your interest in mind at the same time. And often, that's the case when the parties are bringing together problems to share, or rather, puzzles to unpack between them, rather than just one person offering advice to another. So, it's kind of like a collaborative arrangement of the damaged, almost.
(Laughter)
Paul Hibbert 20:00
“I don't know what to do with this, help me.” And we're all in the same puzzle, we can work it out between us. But, if that's the situation, what you also need sometimes is the right number of voices too because, what we found in our recent work, my work with Sharon Matthon and Nick Beach in particular, which we’re still in the process of publishing right now, is that, if you have two voices, if you have a person you rely on from time to time, you tend to drift towards support, and there's nothing wrong with that. Perhaps -- I'm hoping this is right to Scott -- your tendency with your wife would be to support first and foremost, is that fair? You have to say yes, don't you? Otherwise, you're in big trouble.
Scott Allen 20:38
(Laughs) I should say, okay, so as you were speaking, I was thinking about, even in the context of, say, COVID-19, my wife and I looked at it as a puzzle. How do we make this the best holidays ever? How do we make this the best Thanksgiving ever? So, we had to get very, very creative, and neither one of us had the answer. And we were both vulnerable and admitting that neither one of us had the answer. So neither of us had a strong opinion of the path forward that this is what we need to do. It was; this is a puzzle for us to figure out, and we came up with some pretty good solutions. But as a parent, oftentimes, whether it's how do I influence our son to improve his grades, or my daughter to engage in the sport with a little more vigor? Those are all puzzles that my wife and I will go on a walk, and we will dialogue, and come to what are our best guess is. (Laughs) What's the next experiment we run to see if this works, and if this moves the needle? So, that was what was on my mind when I was… And so, I have a wonderful partner in my wife, and that we engage in that dialogue, and we come up with that path forward. But I’m kind of going back and forth in really exploring the options. And so, I feel very fortunate for that. So, that's what was coming to mind for me as you were speaking.
Paul Hibbert 22:07
And that's a really nice example. But also, it shows that what's going on there is a kind of very intense care situation. That you matter deeply to each other, of course, and that's absolutely right. But sometimes, a third voice can throw in something a little more, can throw in the critical question. It's like, well, you’re both having this warm agreement about this thing, “But have you thought about this other thing over here?” And, “Do you know what? This warm agreement is actually crazy?”
Scott Allen 22:34
Paul, the example of that is when our son starts to have opinions.
(Laughter)
Scott Allen 22:41
That is now the third person in the conversation.
Paul Hibbert 22:45
It's a bit like that. But it's also a useful thing, isn't it? Sometimes they shock you with how smart the answer is, you go, “Oh, no, you got me.” But it’s really a helpful thing. So sometimes having more than two voices is helpful, because we tend to build supportive relationship in pairs, but sometimes a learning one can be better if it’s wider. That's another important point. But it's also accepting that, as you beautifully exemplified for me, to simply doing it, but it's about trying out these options. And the experience we all had in COVID was a massive experiment for all of us. And sometimes, we had to kind of create the conditions for dialogue by ourselves. People did that, actually, through using fictional resources, through reading, through having reflected music, through engaging with nature in different ways than they used to. Suddenly, our outdoors became a huge part of our lives because that’s what we had. I’m lucky where I live, I live in a village very close to a small forest and a beach, and the only blessing for me at lockdown was nobody else could get there.
(Laughter)
Paul Hibbert 23:47
This is my space now. So, you really engage with that differently. So, it’s the way the circumstances evolve as well. And that's kind of the envelope of everything, isn't it? So you've got these four levels of attention, but then there's a world out there that throws in strange and unusual things, and keeps offering you new puzzles all the time.
Scott Allen 24:06
So well said, beautifully said. What else comes to mind, sir?
Paul Hibbert 24:12
I think the other thing that comes to mind is that, if you engage in this kind of vulnerable practice knowing that you can't be intense all the time, you can’t be switched on all the levels of the time, accepting that sometimes you’re a bit triggered a spot that you have to sometimes pack it. Sometimes, you really are in the flow of some crisis, and you just can't stop and deal with it right then, but you know there's something unresolved. And so, you need to think about how you use those trusting dialogue partners and come back to it later, and hopefully, not too much later. You don't sit on this stuff for a long time; it bites away at you. It hurts if you leave it there unresolved. So, if you're carrying something like that, think about how you can take it into a space, relatively soon, and unpack it later on. I used to have a problem with people being indecisive thinking, “You could tell me this now, why do you want to wait till tomorrow?” But now I think, “That’s so wise.” Often, I've found myself thinking, “This is a precious situation, I've got to answer this email right now and send it.” And what I generally do instead is, I write my answer and I leave it in my drafts folder till the next morning, and, half the time, I change them. But that's kind of a middle way, but the real thing is about those situations where you have to do something that you know it's not perfect, and you know there's unpacked stuff there. So, take it away to unpack with people later. And another interesting point about this kind of practice, if you balance all of that, if you're being superhuman, getting everything right in that way, is other people don't get it. That's why I was criticizing myself about looking for decisive people. People think leaders are people who make snap judgments like that and just give you the right answer, that's not how it works. It’s too complex for that. And so, there isn't really this appreciation or taste for doing things in that way, and you can't really sell it to people quickly. Hopefully, over time, if what you do in your work shows a difference, that's how people will be convinced. But they might not even then spot the mechanism behind that, and that's all right. It's about helping you to do your best in a leadership situation, not about convincing people you're a great person. And that's the difference.
Scott Allen 26:23
I love it. Well, what are a couple of ways that you think about building this -- I've called it a habit of mind, I've called it a way of being, I don't know what your phrasing would be -- how do we help individuals approach the work in this way? What are some things that you have found have been helpful in your own practice of working with students, or executives as, okay, here's some things to be aware of, these four levels, and then they're embodying that work?
Paul Hibbert 26:56
Yeah. So, I think I tend to describe it as reflexive practice, and which is a useful term because we are all always reflexive. What I mean by that, and being technical about it, is that we are always adapting in response to experience sometimes, and maybe a lot of the time, we don't pay attention to what's happening. If we get into a habit of exercising more, we find that we might get very fit, if we do the reverse, you might find the body change in a different way. And these kinds of things happen to us. And as you get older, you need to kind of change your habits to stay where you are, you know how it works. So, we're all changing all the time, whether we admit it or not. But what we're not is aware of it. So, reflexive practice, just saying, “How can we be aware of what's going on with me and changing with me?” And so, capture what the learning is from that as it's going on. So, for me, there's a few kinds of simple things I would encourage people to think about doing, and the first one is something you'll see as a popular theme across a lot of trainers, getting back to your body a little bit. So, it's just using some simple techniques like centering, where you try and stand in a good posture, you pay attention to the feelings up and down your body. You may have a slow in-breath, and a slower out-breath, and center yourself, and feel grounded. Press your feet into the floor and know that you're there. This all sounds a bit ‘woo’ for the first time, but once you do it, you kind of get it. I'm positioning myself back in here, in this frame as a full person, and I'm here. And then, when you do that, you can then maybe notice this emotional stuff going on. That's really the first thing. So, it's not to be overwhelmed, to recognize you're there, and you're grounded and centered, and then work up from that. That’s the first thing.
Scott Allen 28:35
Well, it's not sounding ‘woo’ to me. I took a transcendental meditation course last fall. And I had never meditated, but it's become a part of my routine where it's 20 minutes in the morning. So I worked out this morning from 5:00 to 6:00 A.M. And then, for 20 minutes, did the meditation. And then, oftentimes in the afternoon, it's all over the place as to when I can get to it. It might be 1:00 P.M., or it might be 6:30 P.M. But just that experience of slowing down for 20 minutes and focusing on, in that case, the mantra, and letting thoughts come in and out, it's energizing, but not energizing in a way that I feel, “Woo, I’m ready to take on the world,” but it's centering, to your point. So, it doesn't sound ‘woo’ to me at all. I think what's unfortunate is that it isn't necessarily a practice among the masses in society. But I think it's so helpful because I might, at 4:00 o'clock still have four or five hours of events or activities with children, and moving places, and class, and stuff like that, and it's just a wonderful recentering to move into that second part of the day. So yeah, I get it.
Paul Hibbert 29:55
That’s great. It does help you to be fully there, doesn't it? Otherwise, you kind of autopilot through some stuff. You're not involved in stuff you really want to be involved even though you're apparently there. And I think, also, we can offer people different kinds of similar practice if that doesn't appeal to them. So, often I will suggest people might take a walk, which is the simplest thing to do. Our cities are laid out in different ways in different places. And so, telling my friends in the US to take a walk is not always a good idea if you're in LA, for example, that's not going to work for you. But maybe you do have a workout routine, and maybe you don't listen to music on your headphones. Maybe you like to run, and maybe, again, you don't listen to music, you just run, and you experience the outdoors and see what that does for you. These are similar practices, they’re not as focused, they do some similar things for you in terms of grounding and put you back where you are. And I think that's helpful. We tend to be overstimulated a lot of the time, that's probably why meditation will appeal to you. It kind of brings you back down from that stuff, doesn't it? I've got the gadget at arm's length, and there's some voice in my ear, and there's probably a screen in front of me as well. But you cut that out for a while and come back to yourself, and then you have more chance to be fully aware of what's really going on. And so, sometimes the simpler things; walking, running, exercise, that might do it for people. But I think just paying attention to yourself and trying some of these simple grounding exercises, which is going to take a minute or two, can be really useful once you develop it as a practice.
Scott Allen 31:22
That was well said. I think it might be prayer for some, it might be meditation for some, it might be just a quick app in a mindfulness app of some sort that takes five minutes. But I think what's most important is that someone… It might be a five-minute walk, but the fact that people are investigating that, and what is it that does that for them is probably the work, right?
Paul Hibbert 31:47
Yeah. And I think I love the example of prayer, if you don't want me picking that out, just because you'll have plenty of people who will say, “Well, suppose nobody's listening.” And I’ll say, “That's not the point, the point is you're speaking your heart. That's what you're letting yourself do if you’re really committed to what's going on in prayer.” Maybe somebody's listening, maybe they're not, that's not for me to decide. What's going on with you in that expression?
Scott Allen 32:11
Exactly. In transcendental meditation, the training for that, I was not told to do a gratitude segment, but I've moved into, as I know my time is kind of winding down, just checking in with what I'm thankful for. And I've built that in. And again, that's not necessarily an official part of what the practice is, but it's been incredibly helpful for me.
Paul Hibbert 32:36
That's really great. And I think it leads me to another way of looking at practice is don't be afraid of bricolage. Of making it up a little bit and patching things together that work for you. We're all different, so it's got to be what works for you. So, I've found that my own practice changes. I've talked about grounding, I do that quite a lot. And that's helped with some problems in the past, it's a really useful thing to do. But also, I have a practice of journaling at the end of every night. And so, I tend to download what I've done that day that I thought worked out, and what didn't work out. I think about the things I've got to do tomorrow, and I write them down to get them out of my head. I put them down somewhere, and then I end…
Scott Allen 33:14
So they don't show up at 3:00 A.M. (Laughs)
Paul Hibbert 33:17
So, I end my journaling with some gratitude things. But just the small things that I enjoyed today, and just close the day that way. So, I've done the download of what I need to do tomorrow and put it away. And I think that kind of journaling can work for some people. It's not for everyone, some people don't like to write. So, if that works for you, it's nothing to try. So again, it's about how you're expressing yourself. I think the ‘3:00 A.M.’ thing is a great trap for everyone, isn't it? Everyone needs to have a small note by their bedside which says, “It's 3:00 A.M., you're nuts.” So, when you wake at 3:00 A.M., and see it, you know because none of these thoughts are any good at that point in the night.
Scott Allen 33:55
(Laughs) Well, I really appreciate the conversation today, and I appreciate your work greatly. I think you've given listeners so much to think about. And is there anything else that you want to express before we begin to wind down for the day? Anything else that comes to mind for you?
Paul Hibbert 34:13
Yeah, sure. We're talking about vulnerability and leadership, and vulnerability sometimes is something you can manage, and sometimes, you think you're being hurt too much. And, you know what? It's kind of a health warning, but I think we have to say it, if you feel you're hurting too much, get help. There's no shame in it. I've had help myself in the past, and I recommend it to everyone who feels the need.
Scott Allen 34:35
There's a quote; Bob Hogan from Hogan Assessments that Doug Lindsey had shared with me from the Air Force Academy, “Who you are is how you lead.” And it's an interesting quote, it's a thought-provoking quote. That's my values, that's my knowledge, that's my personality, any number of different ways we could look at that. But how I think about it is, if that's the case, am I becoming the best version of myself? And so, what am I putting into motion to help me be that best version of self? And so, for instance, the meditation training I did last fall was I needed something else to help me that was energizing and life-giving to add into the day, like a workout, like a walk. But I see a therapist every two weeks, and that's another opportunity for me to connect with someone, and build up my resilience, build up my ability to tackle these complex challenges all of us face in modern society. That it is not easy to parent, and to teach, and to consult, and to write. And all of those different things that we have going on, whatever it is for you as a listener, what's your system to build you up to build that resilience to be able to be the best version of self? So, what you said resonated beautifully. Yes, get help. And that might be a strong relationship. That might be a mentor. That might be… Again, whatever it is for you, just put it in place so you're the best version of yourself.
Paul Hibbert 36:08
That's a great way of putting it. Yeah.
Scott Allen 36:11
We always wind down this conversation, Paul, with just a quick request. And really, it's about what you've been listening to recently. What you've been streaming, what you've been reading. What's caught your attention in recent times that may be of interest to listeners? So, is there something that's caught your eye?
Paul Hibbert 36:30
Oh, well, nothing of great moral significance or majestic importance…
Scott Allen 36:36
Even reading a lot of journal articles is what you've been doing. (Laughs)
Paul Hibbert 36:40
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been doing. But also, perhaps my downtime reading is where I've found some little tricks inspiration. I'm a great fan of Louise Penny's writing, her Inspector Gamache novels are terrific. The main character is a vulnerable leader and Chief Inspector of Police in Quebec. And there's lots of art, and literature, and references. A rich kind of backdrop in what goes on. But ultimately, somebody doing the right kind of thing even though it's going to hurt them. Sometimes, when the world looks a bit too fragmented and full of negative characters, you need some fiction that's going to pick you up a bit. And Louise Penny's writing is engaging, and entertaining, but it's also wise and kind. I can't oversell it.
Scott Allen 37:25
I will put links in the show notes for listeners so that they can connect and check that out themselves for sure. Dr, thank you so much for your time today. Such a fun conversation. For listeners, we're going to put all kinds of resources into the show notes so that you can access those. And love to have you back, sir. I'd love to have you back. Thank you so much for our dialogue today.
Paul Hibbert 37:48
It's been a delight. Thank you so much.
Scott Allen 37:50
Okay. Be well. I really enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Hibbert. And I feel like we just scratched the surface. Wow, just scratched the surface. So, this whole conversation around vulnerability, if you're working at your edge, you are going to be vulnerable. And if you are a leader who can model that vulnerability, maybe others in the organization will raise their hand when they don't know, when they're confused, when they don't see a clear path forward. Maybe, if we put ourselves in situations where we model that vulnerability, that can help get us somewhere new. Not always. Sure, just like anything else, there's times where we have to show strength, and there's times when we have to display vulnerability. And are we using the context in the situation to consciously and intentionally determine which is best for this situation? So, to Paul, I'm just so thankful for your time today. As always, thank you so much for checking in, everyone. I hope you enjoyed the conversation; leadership and vulnerability. It's a fascinating one. Take care, be well, and do some good.
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