Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you so much for checking in today. Wherever you are in the world. We have some incredible guests and a fun conversation ahead. And today, we are going to honor Women's History Month, and it's March 2023. My first guest today is Dr. Lisa DeFrank-Cole. She is an author, and educator leadership coach with over 25 years of experience working in universities and in state government. Lisa works with individuals and groups to support their leadership, learning and development through her writing, speaking, and coaching. She currently serves as Professor and Director of the West Virginia University Leadership Studies program in the Eberly College of Arts and Sciences in 2022. She won a most promising new textbook award from The Textbook and Academic Authors Association and the award for outstanding scholarship from the International Leadership Association's women and leadership member community. Both awards recognize her work as co-author with Dr. Sherylle Tan of the recent textbook, Women and Leadership: Journey Toward Equity. She has been awarded a Fulbright Specialist grant to the Kingdom of Bahrain and has presented her research internationally her forthcoming book, A Research Agenda for Gender and Leadership, co-edited with Dr. Sherylle Tan, will be available in March 2023. Now speaking of Dr. Sherylle Tan, is an applied psychologist, leadership educator and coach, and author with over 20 years of experience in higher education research and consulting at Claremont McKenna College. Sherylle is the Director of Internships and KLI Research with the Kravis Leadership Institute (KLI) and Visiting Assistant Professor of Psychology. As a scholar on women's leadership, she has published articles, chapters, and books on leadership with a focus on women, gender, and inclusion. Her book Women and Leadership: Journey Toward Equity with Lisa DeFrank-Cole received the 2022 most promising new textbook award from The Textbook and Academic Authors Association. Recently, she co-edited with Lisa DeFrank-Colel, A Research Agenda for Gender and Leadership. Sherylle served as the 2016 chair and member of the executive leadership team for the International Leadership Association, Women and Leadership Community supporting leadership scholars and practitioners to advance the research and knowledge of women and leadership. Sherylle was recognized by the ILA Women and Leadership member community as the 2022 winner of the Outstanding Scholarship for Established Scholars Award. Sherylle is an inaugural member of the National Advisory Committee for Leadership for Public Purpose Classification.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 2:36
You can tell we work together!
Scott Allen 2:39
And of course, my co-host today Dr. Tony Middlebrooks, and he creates programs and tools, designs learning experiences, and explores the intersection of leadership, innovation, creativity, and design. He is a clinical full professor of leadership in the Warrington College of Business at the University of Florida. He has taught aspiring leaders from youth through executives creating a wide range of courses and programs. Dr. Middlebrooks is lead author of the textbook discovering leadership designing your success, now in its second edition, and he's published numerous articles and book chapters and delivered hundreds of presentations. He is also co-author of Public Sector Leadership, co-creator of the Idea of Fan Deck and Design Thinking Cards, and serves on the editorial board of the Journal of Leadership Studies. Dr. Middlebrooks has a Ph.D. in educational psychology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. This is a very accomplished group. I'm so excited to have this dialogue today. Thanks to the two of you for being with us, Lisa. And Sherylle, we are so thankful for your time today. And of course, Tony, it's good to have you back as well, sir.
Tony Middlebrooks 3:48
Good to be back.
Scott Allen 3:49
Thank you. Sherylle and Lisa, what do you want listeners to know about you? What's something that's not in your bio that maybe we can only find out here on Phronesis? They heard it here first. Right?
Sherylle J. Tan 4:04
Right, right.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 4:06
I think it's important to know that I'm a first-generation college graduate from Appalachia. I grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania and moved around to Michigan and Pittsburgh and back to West Virginia. And I didn't know much about college when I went, but I loved education. I pursued each successive degree with some doubt and surprise when I finished, and I certainly never expected to be a professor, nor did I think I would be an author. So that's a little bit of behind-the-scenes.
Scott Allen 4:37
I love it. I love it. Sherylle, how about you?
Sherylle J. Tan 4:40
Yeah, for me, I am a second-generation, Filipina American born and raised in Southern California right here in Los Angeles. And so I believe that's part of my social location really influences who I am, my perspectives, and how I see the world. I've been in Southern Cal California pretty much my entire life, finishing high school and graduating from UC-Irvine. And that is a part of who I am. I love Southern California—other things about me. On the side, I am a registered yoga teacher. I've been teaching yoga for 1012 years now; somewhere around there, I can't I stopped counting. And so that's something I like to do in addition to the research and work I do at Claremont McKenna and with Lisa.
Scott Allen 5:30
Oh, it's wonderful. Well, it's wonderful. Well, thanks to the two of you for being with us today. We really do appreciate it. And Tony and I and some co-authors, Mindy McNutt and Jim Morrison, had been working on this textbook. And we had this feature in the textbook called Experts Beyond the Text. And, of course, the two of you were raised to the top of our list of people that we wanted to include, and really on this topic of Women in Leadership. So if we think about that topic, I think what we want to explore today are what are some ground-level baseline things that listeners should understand. And then I think we also want to maybe get to, towards the end of our dialogue, what are some resources? Obviously, the two of you are developing resources. And we'll restate that. But are there some other seminal works or resources that you found beneficial? What are some foundational elements that people need to have on their radar?
Sherylle J. Tan 6:25
One of the things that we talked about in our expert beyond text piece for your book was this idea of second-generation gender bias. We didn't talk about that, or it wasn't explicit in the first edition. But we felt it was important to make it more explicit when we revised it for your second edition. This is important because it gives you an idea of some of the barriers that women face as they get into leadership. So second generation, gender bias has to do with these cultural attitudinal beliefs that we have about gender about women. And they're a form of implicit bias, basically, it's not an overt bias that we express. And both men and women have it. Everyone of all genders has this implicit bias. And this comes from the idea that we don't have role models and that it's hard to be what we can't see. So there's a lack of role models for women, we have gendered rear paths. So we see that women tend to go in certain career paths, and men are encouraged in certain career paths. There's a lack of access that women have for networks for sponsorship for mentoring that perpetuates the second-generation gender bias. And there's also the double bind, which we did mention in the first edition of your book, the double bind, having to be with that challenge that women face in being liked, as well as seen as competent. It is incongruent for women to be both a leader and be seen as a woman in many ways. Perhaps Lisa can elaborate a little bit more.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 8:19
Sherylle did a great job of outlining the second-generation gender bias. And maybe I could tease it out a little further and share the distinction between first-generation gender bias and second-generation bias. First-generation bias was overt. This is where a woman could be fired from her job for being pregnant, for example, which you could do in the United States up until the late 1970s. So that is first-generation bias. Second-generation bias, as Sherylle said, is more covert, it's less seen, it's less obvious. And an example of that is perhaps, you know, a woman is working in a company, and her boss knows of an opportunity to go overseas. But he doesn't tell the woman about the position that is coming up because he thinks he's doing her a favor, because she has maybe a partner and small children. And he doesn't want to make her have to choose between leaving the United States and going abroad and the challenge that it might incur there. So more cases like that, he doesn't even realize what he's doing in that example. It just happens is it inadvertently advantages the men on the team because he talks to his other male colleague and offers him the opportunity to apply for that post. And we know that if you go abroad that sometimes you get your ticket punched, it is a way to move up in an organization from that stretch assignment. So that's kind of the difference between first-generation bias and second-generation bias is that covert piece.
Tony Middlebrooks 9:57
A lot of this research is looking at groups, right? So, we sample groups, and then we make generalizations back. And now with this, you know, the increasing awareness that gender is relatively fluid. And, you know, we all have our own distinct individual personalities is this work? At some point, do you think you are going to transition into more of a focus on individual consideration? Where do you see that going?
Sherylle J. Tan 10:29
I think it's important to acknowledge that gender is fluid, and there's a spectrum in gender. And I think that, as we think about the concepts of gender and leadership, women are part of that, right? Women are part of that gender. Men, on the other end, are part of the gender. And there's also that in between. And so I think it is an area of gender identity, especially in an area that research needs to start to look more deeply at because there's very little research out there. There are a few people doing it, but not very many. So I do think that, yes, there is a line of research that is going in that direction, looking specifically at identity and gender identity in particular, as it relates to leadership. And I think that is really important.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 11:20
I agree with what Sherylle said. And I also think that we should still keep investigating women and leadership too. And certainly, disaggregate data. When we talk about women, they're not one large, monolithic group; we need to say what type of woman we are looking at what race, ethnicity, religion, ability, socio-economic status these kinds of things, and who gets to lead. So I don't want to lose the focus on women and leadership, as we well should keep exploring the broad spectrum of gender at the same time.
Sherylle J. Tan 11:57
Yeah, this is a topic Lisa and I have had conversations about many times in terms of gender and leadership, and where does women and leadership fall into that and this idea of gender identity as well as intersectionality, because as Lisa mentioned, women are not a monolithic group, there is so much more depth and different identities that women are connected with. And so I think that it's also important to point out that least, I have had this conversation many, many times.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 12:29
And we don't always agree, and I think yeah, and that's important to mention, too. Yeah,
Sherylle J. Tan 12:33
Yeah, we oftentimes...not heated, but we, we have an academic conversation about this. And we don't always come to an agreement. And we talk about that in some of our writing. And in our upcoming book. Not everyone agrees right on what gender and leadership should look like.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 12:53
Right, the cutting edge is the bleeding edge.
Tony Middlebrooks 12:58
I think it's so refreshing to hear that kind of behind-the-scenes conversation and disagreement and batting about ideas. And I would love for students to hear some of that. I think a lot of our students come to the table. And certainly the general public, through news media, comes to the table and thinks, oh, professors think they know it all. They think they're experts. And you know, we strive to find answers. But the reality is answers are complicated. And in the social sciences, even more, so it's fun to hear about the two of you and your collaboration. Scott and I argue we fight like cats and dogs. But yours sounds much more constructive.
Sherylle J. Tan 13:42
It's healthy to have these arguments to question each other to question our research to encourage students to question the research. Where's the perspective? Where's the theory coming from? Is it coming from a white male perspective? How does that resonate with someone who is not? Who might be from a BIPOC perspective? Does that apply to them in the same way? So I think it's really important to look at, say social location, ideology, hegemony, those critical perspectives, and have students think about what it is they are learning and question it.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 14:21
Patrick Lencioni talks in his book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team - that being afraid of conflict can actually hold a team back. And so I think Scott and Tony, they, like cats and dogs, or the fact that Sherylle and I can disagree and still be wonderful collaborators at the same time, is healthy, and I think it speaks to the work by Lencioni.
Scott Allen 14:46
Exactly. Are there other not contentious but unknown New Frontiers in this space that people should be aware of that there isn't clarity around it? What are the two of you seeing what other conversations are you having? I think, getting behind that curtain a little bit and understanding that would be fascinating for listeners.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 15:07
Scott, I think that's a great question. And I think Sherylle alluded to it when she was talking about this forthcoming book that we're; it's coming out on gender and leadership, I think in the recent past, and even not so recent, fast. I mean, it's been a while since so often when we'd see the words gender and leadership in a chapter in a textbook, or an edited volume, for example, the content was about women, and the challenges that women face the labyrinth, to use Alice Eagly's term, Linda Carli's term, that labyrinth of leadership that women were facing. And as Sherylle said, gender is a spectrum. And I think just within those last several years, we're seeing a shift towards the exploration of gender identities as they relate to leadership. And in the past, when we talked about gender leadership, is focused just on women.
Sherylle J. Tan 16:01
I mentioned intersectionality a little bit earlier. And I think that's a particular area that comes to mind, especially looking beyond just gender as a demographic or a variable. But beyond gender and the different nuances that come along with an individual, whether it be race, ethnicity, education, or any kind of privileged out there, and how that connects with opportunities for leadership, I think is important to start to look at. Those are some of the companies that come to mind.
Tony Middlebrooks 16:38
Lisa, I'm happy to hear you're a first-generation college person, I am as well. And I come from a long line of Polish factory workers, half of which were women. And as I think about my upbringing, particularly with my grandparents, great grandparents, it strikes me that there are some interesting, I'm assuming cultural variables, both within the United States and then across the globe, that interweave with some of these gender and leadership issues. Could you speak a little bit to some of those differences?
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 17:13
Absolutely. And Tony, we might be related from way back - who knows? My grandparents on my mom's side, my grandparents were Slovak. And on my dad's side, my grandparents were from Italy. So my parents were first-generation Americans. So and I think that's a connection point that Sherylle and I have two is kind of the recent immigrant experience and that work ethic that comes along with it. And I think that's also one of the reasons we work so well together is I've never had a partner like Sherylle who works as hard as I do. So I don't want that to come across as sounding arrogant, but, and we go toe to toe, I mean, late nights, early mornings, whatever it is, Sherylle and I were always right there with each other. I mean, it's wonderful when you have a partner, and you don't want, I mean, you never want to leave that partner. They work as you do. And I would say that you know, I certainly don't know, all cultural elements. But the East European side, I mean, I've talked to some people who grew up, kind of before the Iron Curtain came down in the old Soviet Union kind of those states and where women worked differently, they went to work. In contrast, more Western women stayed at-home moms during the, I mean, we're talking like after World War Two, in the 50s, and 60s. And so I think if you meet people from, even if we just use Europe as an example, in this case, Eastern/Western Europe, there might be different perspectives and expectations of women being in the workforce, a paid labor force, as opposed to working from home, as I think perhaps some of us might have experienced in the United States, thinking about people, our parent's age, or grandparents were were they working outside of the home or inside the home? Sherylle, what do you think?
Sherylle J. Tan 19:07
Women have always worked, especially in maternal employment. And women have always worked to some degree in different areas, whether it be in the home, but also outside of the home. And that hasn't always been recognized in many ways that women have always worked. They've always helped to support the family. And so I think that those cultural ideals, whether it comes from a Western or a different perspective, have a big impact on our views of whether or not women can lead, and so it has influenced deeply those views and those ideas of what women's work should be. I think I think that's been a big, big piece of it, that we don't always realize or acknowledge that women have always worked. They have worked behind the scenes they have worked in various arenas. What has been The challenge for women in leadership is that women's leadership has not always been recognized throughout history.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 20:07
Yeah. And like Sherylle was saying, it's those historical foundations that impact women as leaders today.
Sherylle J. Tan 20:14
They impact women as leaders today; they influence the prototypes in our thinking about leadership. And that prototype doesn't usually include a woman.
Tony Middlebrooks 20:25
So this is just my curiosity. I spend a lot of time early in a person's leadership journey, trying to tease out for them conceptual leader, the person, the role, leadership, and the process facilitating a process. And it strikes me that I, and I guess what I'm wondering is, from your perspective, do you think that once that starts to parse out a little bit, as people start to understand that leadership is facilitating a process, that that understanding might move us a little bit more toward gender equity and how we approach promoting men and women?
Sherylle J. Tan 21:08
I think that understanding that leadership is a process; it's more than just an individual helps us to see that leadership exists in every single setting. It exists in the home, and it exists in communities, exists in the workplace, and it's moving beyond the title of leader and toward leadership. And so I think, as we brought in and understand, that leadership can happen in our everyday lives, we can practice leadership, with our friends, with our peers, with our classmates, with our colleagues, with our family members. And I think that's important to distinguish.
Scott Allen 21:54
I think at times, even the students that I'm working with, I have a group of juniors that I'm with right now. And they don't see the dynamics in their house. They're living facilities as an opportunity to lead the puzzle is how do we get roommate number three to do the dishes? And we talk a lot about that, whether that's on their athletic teams, whether that's in the classroom, on their group work, wherever it is they're living, there are opportunities there. It's happening all around us. And it's happening to your point Sherylle, in our families, it's happening in our organizations or not. And are your eyes open? And are you seeing that right? And so Tony said something that I think was it sparked a thought in me, as we're working with young people, what are some core concepts that they have to have on their radar? What would we want them to be aware of when it comes to this topic? Do the two of you have anything top of mind that, that you think about when you think, okay, if we're going to help young people see some of these dynamics, see some opportunities to shift the norm? What comes to mind for you?
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 23:07
I was thinking about asking the question if we're thinking about gender equity, and we think a woman may not be up to par, so to speak, and why is she doing that? Could ask the question, would we ask a man to do the same thing? If we just replaced 'she' with 'he?' Would we have the same expectations? And I think that's an important takeaway for any person listening to think about is that sometimes when we think what she is, she is committed, or she's loud, or she seems awfully aggressive. Why would we say the same thing about a man in that position?
Sherylle J. Tan 23:45
I think also realizing that these issues of gender and gender equity are issues that are important for everyone. We often think of it as, oh, that's a woman's issue, or that's an issue for trans people. But that's not an issue for men. But I think it's an issue for everyone of all genders. And I think it's important, especially for men, to be advocates and allies and to learn about these issues because they often hold more of the power and the authority and the privilege at this present time. And without them the power they maintain that power. And so we need everyone to be a part of that move towards equality and to embrace equality. That's the theme for International Women's Day is embracing equality. And so I think that needs to come about for every one of all genders and so that embracing equality by all genders.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 24:55
And it's certainly not trying to supplant men and have this balance kind of go up. down. So there are more women than men in leadership positions or roles. That's certainly not something that we're advocating. It's equity. And what we have found is what the research is showing is that when women are involved in an organization, whether as leaders in a corporation or on corporate boards, it's good for business; not only is it a nice idea to have equality for women, it's also good for business and profit margins have shown to go up, there's more interest in social entrepreneurship kinds of issues. So it's, it's also good for business.
Tony Middlebrooks 25:35
So you may not be aware of this, but in the new edition, we've created a new segment in every chapter called DEI by Design, and over the course of the 16 chapters, that introduces a wide, wide range of concepts and ideas, and perspectives related to DEI. But one of the ways that we approached this was we're not asking whether you agree or disagree with the DEI as an ethic. But we are pointing out how it is a very valuable tool to maximize the effectiveness and the impact of individuals and of the organization. So whether it's DEI and how it impacts decision-making, or problem-solving, or sustainability, as in sustaining the organization and its future success. There are a lot of really important aspects here. And so I think, what you're saying is, is very similar, that if we're trying to maximize the success of individuals and organizations, whether it's a business or nonprofit, or government program, or whatever, their individuals, whatever their gender is, have some amazing things to contribute. So are you maximizing that value? And if you're not, or if somehow you're overlooking that, then those are tools that aspiring leaders need to figure out and understand.
Sherylle J. Tan 26:58
Absolutely, absolutely. All organizations and corporations are made out of made up of people. And those people are diverse and different. Even looking beyond the color of their skin or the shape, you know, they have long hair or whatever expression they might have out on the outside. There are also those diverse pieces within that we might not see those invisible cultural aspects, whether it be, say, religion, ability, socioeconomic status, or education. Those are also points of diversity and equity inclusion that we might not always, that's not always visible, it's not visible. If you just look at me, for example, you'll see an Asian woman. But beyond that, you don't know what my socio-economic status you don't know what my education is and how that might either disadvantage or privilege me. Those are not seen. And so those are just as important for that diversity, equity, and inclusion ideas and how we move people towards equity.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 28:06
And it's not new; I mean, Hoffman and Mayer did this research. And I think it was published in the 1960s that the creative, most creative groups are the ones that are more diverse; those that are putting out the best solutions for a challenge are from diverse teams.
Scott Allen 28:23
I think each one of us has to maintain a humble curiosity in the process of building relationships with others, a humble curiosity about learning about the experience of others, learning about their lived experiences. And I think one of the most important learning moments of mine was working with the YWCA. And I was listening to a group of this probably a decade ago now listening to a group of executives talk. And one woman said, "Look, I am the only senior leadership team member that does not have a stay-at-home spouse; I cannot, at the drop of a hat, get on a plane and go to China. And that's my lived reality" or "when I get dressed in the morning, I have to pay close attention to not being too provocative, yet trendy." And, of course, there's a whole host of other nuances of what my wife is experiencing at times, whether it's sitting in a meeting and the male is getting all of the eye contacts. And she comes home, and I'm thinking for real, that's the thing. I didn't even know that, and again, that humble curiosity that what I see is not reality. And I need to be open, and I need to be interested in I need to be engaged in what others experience. A few weeks ago, I had a really important conversation with two scholars from New Zealand about Jacinda Ardern and her role as prime minister. And some of what they said she endured is just toxic. So I don't know, I keep coming back to that humble curiosity because I'm, I'm not seeing or experiencing so much of it.
Sherylle J. Tan 30:08
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And sadly, her experience is not a novel experience for women in government, women in leadership in politics in those particular arenas. It's sad to say,
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 30:23
And it's a way to silence women. I mean, it's a strategy. Yes, scaring women and making them fearful is certainly a strategy that has worked often. Right. And so it's still out there. However, if we stay on Jacinda, Ardern, for just a second, I would say that it was an act of noble leadership that she stepped aside. If there's not enough in the tank, it's okay to say I can step back. It's not as if, you know, sometimes I feel like we're being instructed by Machiavelli himself kind of hold on to power at all cost, right? And, she and some other world leaders have recently stepped back. And I think that's a good model for other women and men. To be honest, when when we are tired, it's time to step back. And thank you, Scott, for your vulnerability in telling us about your perspective and not seeing some things. I think we all live in our own worldview at times. But it's that humble curiosity that you're mentioning that is beneficial for everybody.
Sherylle J. Tan 31:26
Absolutely. And it helps to focus on our din to show these, then that side of her because it brings to light these issues, and you would not have been able to know about those without her bringing it to the forefront.
Tony Middlebrooks 31:43
In moving from the philosophical and the political policy questions and the research-oriented to the practical. But we're all leadership educators; we're all trying to help the next generation of leaders be as effective as they can be. And that's kind of the point of the textbook as well, of course. And you mentioned the interesting exercise of swapping out the pronouns in a given statement or a given situation and seeing how that might look different, which I think is a fabulous exercise that can just be done in numerous contexts. So my question is, what are some of the practical lessons and or activities or applications that would really kind of highlight some of these perspectives?
Scott Allen 32:30
There you go, Tony, trying to make the name of the podcast align with the topic - practical! I sometimes finish, and I say, "I don't know how practical that was, but it was fun!" So thank you, Tony. I think it's a great question.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 32:49
Tony, thanks for the question. And I think it's always great to have a practical application. And I think moving towards a collective organizational culture is one practical solution. If we look back just a few decades, some leaders espoused severe competition, compete, compete, compete, and compete in order you be fired, if you didn't meet your sales goals, or what have you. And I think that a competitive mindset within a company is old news; it's time to look towards a more collaborative mindset. What can we do together with this generative partnership model to think about the Hurwitzs' from Canada talk about that how one plus one is more than just two; it's the generative spirit of what is created from among the group. So instead of competing, I think having a collective idea will help the organization, and it has been shown that women, in particular, thrive in places like that. They thrive more in a collective organizational culture rather than competing against others.
Sherylle J. Tan 34:03
I think another practical example, especially for women individuals in particular, is developing positive belief systems. Positive belief systems like having a strong leader self-efficacy or a growth mindset that can help buffer some of the negative impacts of stereotypes and help women to work towards strengthening their leader identity. So self-efficacy, for example, ways that leader self-efficacy can be enhanced through mastery experiences. So working on building those mastery experiences so that they can feel success by taking on challenges could be incrementally challenging leadership activities, so taking smaller pieces and starting to feel success. us in these challenging leadership activities. Another way to build leader self-efficacy is through vicarious learning. So observing how other leaders are others they see practicing leadership, observing the strategies and what they can do. So those are a couple of ways to support that leader self-efficacy and positive belief system. With a growth mindset we know that a growth mindset is thinking that we can learn and grow and have a positive way of taking things on. So, for example, with negotiation skills, if women believe that negotiation skills are something that can be developed, then they'll be more likely to work and learn and apply the techniques needed to negotiate successfully. And then that helps to defy some of those stereotypes that often are placed on women in that they don't negotiate or they can't negotiate, for example.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 36:06
And to build on that, I just wanted to say that women aren't broken. We're, you know, all of this is to say that are practical solutions aren't saying that women are broken and need to be fixed. And it's up to them to, you know, take another class, figure out how to negotiate. And Sherylle and I talked about this in our book, and I think it's mentioned in your book systems have to change. And so, some of the practical applications can be personal, and they should also be systemic.
Scott Allen 36:36
Well, I know we promised listeners a couple of resources that the two of you have found beneficial authors, books, and articles that have been influential in your work that comes to mind for you,
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 36:50
Alice Eagly, her research has been tremendously helpful to me. And I also think Ely, Ibarra, & Kolb just about anything they've written. There's a lot out there, and Herminia Ibarra is wow. So anyway, yeah, there are some of the people I go to.
Sherylle J. Tan 37:11
I would say the same. Those are the ones that I would point out as well—work by Crystal Hoyt. There's a lot of strong work there, especially on really interesting stereotype threat. There are a lot of good ones out there.
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 37:25
And I've also enjoyed the work by Barbara Kellerman her books. I mean, so there are kinds of research articles that are amazing. And then there are also books, and I have found Barbara Kellerman's books to be wonderful as well.
Scott Allen 37:37
For listeners who don't know this, Barbara blogs pretty prolifically, like daily. And I don't know if that's how she writes these books. But she's incredible. And she's so productive. And she has had some interesting posts recently about women in leadership. And I think the post was called something to the effect of women and leaving women and leaving leadership. The CEO of YouTube just stepped down, and she touches on Jacinda Ardern. So she, this is a passion that she has, as well; Tony, does any resource come to mind for you that's been educational for you and your growth and development?
Tony Middlebrooks 38:14
Yeah, and in this area, the biggest resource I'm looking forward to is the book Lisa and Sherylle will have coming out shortly. Because, you know, in the spirit of humble curiosity, that's the whole reason we invited you as experts on this topic. I don't know a whole lot about it. But I know my students need to know some things about it. So I am deeply appreciative and look forward to learning more.
Scott Allen 38:43
One other quick resource that is a good one is Julie Owen has We Are the Leaders We've Been Waiting For: Women in Leadership Development in College, which, really, she was an early guest on Phronesis. And that opened my eyes to several again, dynamics that were completely invisible to me. And so, again, that's a resource that I found beneficial. I think all of us can learn, develop and grow. None of us are finished products. Are we humble about our knowledge? And are we staying curious so that we stay open to learning?
Lisa DeFrank-Cole 39:18
So Sherylle and I actually presented at the International Leadership Association conference with Julie Owen last fall and so have really come to appreciate her and her work and so certainly would add her to the list do
Scott Allen 39:33
To the two of you, thank you so much for being with us today. We appreciate it. Tony always good to be with you, sir. Even if you don't have a microphone, I still love you and I still care about you. Okay, for listeners, I will have to buy him a microphone and send it to his house. I think that's how it's going to have to be here.
Sherylle J. Tan 39:50
We can chip in! To get Tony a mic. GoFundMe!
Scott Allen 40:01
Everybody take care. Thanks for checking in today. We appreciate your time, and go out in the world and do some good! Take care, everyone, bye-bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai