Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to Phronesis. Thank you for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today we have a very, very special guest we have Kolinda Grabar-Kitarovic, and she is Croatia's 4th and 1st female President (2015-2020) with broad national and international experience in politics, diplomacy, and security studies. During her career as an elected official and in national and international civil service, among others, she was elected a Member of the Croatian Parliament (2003) and served as Croatia’s first female Minister of Foreign Affairs (2003-2008) and Ambassador to the United States, Mexico, Panama and the Organisation of American States (2008-2011), as well as the first female Assistant Secretary General and member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) Senior Leadership (2011-2014).
She was elected an independent member of the International Olympic Committee in 2020, and has been appointed Chair of the Future Hosts Commission for the Games of the Olympiad. She is a Special Advisor to the Dean of the Zagreb School of Economics and Management. She serves on the boards of several not-for-profit institutions, such as Friends of Europe, the US Atlantic Council, GLOBSEC, Halifax International Security Forum, the Nizami Ganjavi International Center, and the Concordia Leadership Council. She is a Member of the High-Level Advisory Council for the High Representative for the UN Alliance of Civilizations (UNAOC), the Global Ambassador for Immunization for Women Political Leaders (WPL), and chair emerita of the Council of Women World Leaders.
Parallel to her diplomatic and political careers, she has pursued an academic career in government, international relations, and security studies at the Vienna Diplomatic Academy (1994-1995), the George Washington University (2002-2003), Harvard University (2009), the Johns Hopkins University (2011), and the University of Zagreb. She holds a Master’s degree and is writing a Ph.D. thesis in International Relations and Security Studies on the Responsibility to Protect. She received the 2019 Fulbright Lifetime Achievement award for her "remarkable contributions as a leader, diplomat, and public servant," the George Washington University President’s medal, and many other national and international awards, decorations, recognitions, honorary doctorates and honorary citizenships.
Madam President, thank you so much for being with me today; I just learned a fun fact about you before we started recording, you've been to all 50 states in the United States, and your children have been to 48 of the 50 states. That's pretty incredible.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 2:43
Absolutely. First of all, hello, everyone. It's my pleasure to be with you here today. Thank you for inviting me, and congratulations, and thank you very much for pronouncing my name correctly. My name is actually quite difficult for people to pronounce, even in Croatia, a lot of them fumble. It's amazing that actually kids, like elementary school kids and kindergarten and preschool kids, know it quite well. But people often have difficulties pronouncing my name. And perhaps that's one of the first lessons in leadership when you meet people, do put effort into learning how to pronounce their names correctly. That is very important, not just in making the first impression, but in establishing the right kind of relationship that you want with anyone. But also, thank you for mentioning the fact that, yes, I have traveled to all 50 states multiple times, and my kids have been to 48 states and still need to go to Washington state and Oregon. But it was a wonderful, wonderful experience because we traveled by car, obviously crisscrossing the continent multiple times. And the time that we spent in the car with our kids was quality time; we would listen to books on tape, and then we would stop the books, then we would have these meaningful conversations, and they were in the lower grades of elementary school. So that was a pretty important formative experience for them and really talking to their parents, and traveling around and getting to know people getting to know places and the wonderful country of the United States of America.
Scott Allen 4:18
Well, I was sharing with you before we started recording, we just finished 50 states with our children, and I couldn't agree with you more sitting in a diner, tired in Wyoming as a team, or we were in Alaska last summer and our day got canceled. And the kids said, "Well, what are we going to do?" And we said, "we don't know; we've never been here; what do you want to do?" But in just the problem-solving and the team building and the shared experiences. And again, there's something about doing that by car that really makes a difference.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 4:48
My kids were also keeping these noticing books, so they would write things that they were like journals, and then they would paste in tickets, flowers, the different types of food that you feed to animals, their experiences, etc. So those noticing books right now have wonderful memories of our travels together.
Scott Allen 5:09
Oh, that's great. That's great. Well, I am so excited about our conversation today. And I really would like to start with something that's in your bio. So you are working on a Ph.D. right now, is that correct?
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 5:22
That's correct. I have to admit, though, I have not been very concentrated on that, because I still did a lot of work, as you know, obviously, with all the things that you've read that I do, I do a lot of a lot of volunteer work a lot of activism on different topics, from security, to women's rights, or gender issues to intercultural and interfaith relations and sport as a unifying force that brings us together.
Scott Allen 5:49
Yes, I have such great respect for just that element of the kind of lifelong learning that very few of us, if anyone, is a finished product ever; I had a previous guest on the podcast, Dr. Chip Souba. And he said, Look, "this, this work of personal growth and development is 'a mountain without a top,' it just never ends - it's continuous." And from the sounds of it, you are a curious individual who wants to learn. And who's really taken that to heart? And I think that's such an incredibly important element of effective leadership. Wouldn't you agree?
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 6:23
Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to keep learning for your whole life, learning from your mistakes, things that you've done, preferably from other people's mistakes, and rather than your own, but you will be making many mistakes, and they're just part of life, and solving problems. And learning how to deal with your mistakes and not repeat them is an incredibly important part of leadership, but also working on your academic education. And a fun fact, as well. I am probably the only or was the only incumbent president in the world who was actually sitting in Ph.D. classes. So I attended those regularly. I missed just a few of those when I really had to travel somewhere. So you can imagine me just walking into the class and being a regular Ph.D. student participating in class discussions; it was a little bit weird for everyone around me. And we're also resentful a little bit. They said, "Because of you, the teachers not only come on time, they come in early, and we all have to sign in all the time!" They need the rules stricter because they want to make sure that nobody thinks that you know you're getting any leeway and you're getting easier than other students. But I did respect all the rules, I put in a lot of effort, and now I have to complete that Ph.D. thesis about a topic that is very difficult but incredibly important for humanity, the Responsibility to Protect. It comes down to the protection of civilian populations. Now, as defined by the UN in situations of major crimes and atrocities. However, I think it needs to be extended a lot more broadly to protect human rights everywhere. Human rights are not an internal issue any longer. And it's not somebody else's business. It's the responsibility of all of us to ensure that they are respected everywhere in the world.
Scott Allen 8:25
Yes, yes. One thing I would love to have a conversation with you about because even the topic that you just mentioned, human rights, it's a challenging topic. It's a difficult topic and just the work of leading at the level you have led. What I would love to talk first about is how did you navigate the stress of just the continual 24/7, 365 - for years upon years. What have you done to help take care of yourself in that space? Because I imagine, at times, it's very, very difficult to do.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 9:05
Yes, it is a very difficult thing to do, especially when circumstances around you are the way they were when I was, I wouldn't say growing up but maturing coming of age because the war in Croatia started when I was 23 years old. So I was working - and I started working for the government. It was my choice, first of all, to stay in Croatia, although I could have left for the US. And second, it was my choice to work for the government. And I worked basically 24/7. However, I still had six more exams to take at my college before I graduated college. And it wasn't easy because I would study overnight, or I would just keep a book on my desk or in my drawer, and whenever I would have a minute, I would continue studying. So in those circumstances, you don't really think about yourself and how to deal with stress. You And when I left for Canada for my first diplomatic posting, that was in 1996. So that was after the major after basically, practically the war ended in Croatia was still had peaceful reintegration of a part of the last remaining occupied part of Croatia. But as I was leaving for Canada with all the preparations of wrapping up the translation of the book that I was working on, I also have to tell you that my first salary for working 24/7 amounted to $95 per month, and my rent was $200. Thus, you know, you can draw your own conclusions that I had to do whatever I could to earn a little bit more money by translating books and articles teaching English or other languages. I was even a substitute teacher at high school at one point. So you do all sorts of things, and you don't think about yourself. And then, I got my first major allergy, which was the reaction of my immune system to stress to burnout. And fortunately, in Canada, I did take about a couple of months to slow down. So what I did, of course, you know, I came to Canada; I still had a lot of debt to pay off in Croatia, so that I couldn't spend much money. But I invested money into a pair of good sneakers. And at the time, a Walkman was a CD player with a shock absorbent CD player.
Scott Allen 11:34
I remember those. I remember those.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 11:36
Yeah, well, those saved my life, I have to say, because I would listen to music. I would get up early in the morning, and I would walk to work. It was a brisk half hour at work from my apartment to the embassy downtown. And I walked every single day to work and back. So that would be half an hour in the morning, half, half an hour in the afternoon. And I would go to the gym. During lunch break, at least three times a week, I would walk the stairs; I lived on the 24th floor and worked on the 17th floor. I would go to the swimming pool in my building, and every weekend I would go skating on the canal in Ottawa, a 24-kilometer route. I would go skiing in Gatineau Park, and physical activity was a godsend for me. It was it really allowed me to - first of all get healthier in every way physically, psychologically, mentally focused, balanced, and listening to music and walking and listening to music. You know I also used to do a funny thing in my apartment when I couldn't go running outside because, you know, in Ottawa gets minus 20 degrees Celsius plus windchill. But I did walk in that weather, and I would walk in deep snow. And I have to tell you that all those stories about snow plowers bearing you in snow are all true. It happened to me so many times because they clear the roads, and they don't. They're practically no pedestrians in the streets; it was just me. And then, you know, the truck would come by, and I would just get buried in the snow on the side of the road and dig myself out. I mean, it was nothing like life-threatening or anything. It was a lot of fun, but I loved it. Of course, you do get upset, but I think that the hormones that are released, positive hormones that are released during physical exercise, are exceptionally important for stress relief and dealing with your stress. And then, little by little, I learned how to sort of sit myself down and have a look at my life. And look at the stressors that are causing frustration, first of all, perhaps anger and anxiety, and I tried to deal with them. If I couldn't personally, then I would ask for help from friends and family, mostly friends and also my co-workers. I would tell them to look; I mean, you have to find time in my schedule for me to get away to be able to relax, to go out for a walk, etc. And when I was president, I adopted a dog, so she was from a shelter, and just caring for her, and the way that she returned all the love and care and walking around with her was great. And I think that caring for an animal or caring for an animal, or anyone for that matter. Being able to kind of de-focus from yourself and focus on somebody else. Be it a human being or your pet, or the environment is something that you need to be able to step out of the situation, especially if you're going in loops, if you're just circling around and not being able to break that cycle. Just focus on something outside of what is preoccupying you right now.
Scott Allen
I had heard a similar notion of, you know, when you have teenagers, you get a dog for them, that there's just this source of unconditional love. No matter what's happening in the teenager's life, There's unconditional love and happiness in front of you, right?
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović
You know, when you come home, your dog is always happy that you're home. You don't get a grumpy person. She was she hated to be left alone. So she did little pranks, and she'd destroy things. But that's because she wanted attention. And she wanted to be with me. So I understood. But yeah, I grew up with animals, s a matter of fact, I grew up a farm in the suburbs of Rijeka. So I was used to animals. And I used to have a horse as well, so I did some riding. Unfortunately, I can't do any riding any longer, because I have problems with my spine due to multiple injuries during my lifetime. But other than that, again, animals are just wonderful. Yeah, wonderful creatures and they will recognize your emotions, and they will respond to that.
Scott Allen 16:20
Okay, part of the source of some of the stress of leading at the level that you have led is that the problems are so complex by the time it's on your desk and on your plate to discuss, it's no longer a simple or a complicated problem. It's pretty complex. And there's going to be winners; there's going to be losers, there's going to be people who are left out, people who gain it's, it's just adaptive work. I know you've done some work at Harvard, and Ron Heifetz calls those adaptive challenges, especially in this VUCA context that we're in. So how did you approach I understand that it would vary depending on the issue. But let's just say for some of those challenges, that just really are more complex, how did you approach the problem-solving component of your role because I find that fascinating, again, you know, that a certain faction of people will not be pleased with the decision, by the time it gets to your desk at your role, it's not easy.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 17:25
Yes, there is great complexity. And also, it becomes a lot more difficult when you're working in a multicultural environment. And for instance, NATO was a case in point for me where you had at the time 28 nations, so people from 28 different nations from different cultures from different sides of the two sides of the Atlantic. And then also, when you compare Croatia, it's different from the US and different from what I saw, or what I experienced in Canada, and certainly in Washington, DC, and elsewhere. Croatia is a lot more hierarchical. And I tried to put a lot more emphasis on teamwork. And on the initiative of my co-workers. The problem with that was that they felt a little bit awkward and even afraid to come up with initiatives. And they were waiting for me to call them and to tell them what to do. And I'm not really that type of manager, nor leader. I always like to engage people around me. And I think that teamwork is always a lot better. And ultimately, there are situations when you just have to act like a boss. And you have to bring an end to a situation whether it's a protracted conflict, or whether it's a position where you can't come to this joint decision, or you know, ultimately, as President, obviously, I was responsible for any type of decisions, I had to take the responsibility in taking that decision as well. But perhaps one of the most difficult tasks that I had to do when I came to NATO was the division that I inherited, which was cumbersome. And that had almost been abolished by people at NATO by the nations because they thought that it was just too static - the division was spending a lot of money, and the output was not great. So you know, those were the so-called times of austerity. It's different from NATO today; you don't really have to justify the reasons for NATO's existence. But back when I worked at NATO from 2011 to 2014, there were a lot of questions - you know, what do we need NATO for? Is it just a remnant of the Cold War? What is the purpose of NATO, etc? And my division was in charge of communications and in charge of strategic communications, and day-to-day information. So I had to reform the division, which meant that a number of people had to go. I had to choose based on the task that I had been given by the nations and by NATO, by the personal competencies and affinities of every single person, every single worker, and of course, based on my vision on which I had been selected for that position to transform into reform the division. So I really took the time to talk to every single person in the division, which meant extensive conversations with more than 120 people, before I proceeded with the reform of the division, but I did take the time, to demonstrate to everyone that they are important that their views will be taken into account, but that they're also responsible for presenting those views not just for themselves, but for the future of the division as well. And I also talked to the Employees Association, which is incredibly important; I could not believe - I did not expect some kind of a workers union at NATO - but there it is - and rightfully so - to protect the rights of the employees. So I talk to them about the potential conflictual situations. And we came to an agreement to take care of those people who unfortunately had to leave the division, and we placed them in positions that we thought would be more appropriate for them, that would not mean for them that they're going down in any way. So an adequate position, professionally, financially, and in every other way. And that would allow them also space to grow and perhaps use their professional capabilities a lot better than in the place or in the position where they sometimes were even stuck. So those are very difficult decisions, lots of ethical dilemmas. Because, you know, you're deciding on the future of people who had spent years at the division, and now they have to transition somewhere else. But I'm happy to say that, yes, we did resolve it positively for the division; for NATO, there was one case that the world ended up with some appeal. However, having talked to the employees, division, association, etc., that was ultimately resolved amicably because there were no arguments that would favor that person carrying a case to court, etc. So that was, you know, required a lot of patience, a lot of actually listening to other people, and thinking about what they told you and adjusting, you know, not sticking to the initial plan 100% all the time. Because especially when you haven't come out of that division, but you're coming from the outside. And that also goes for the elected office, you know, in the campaign, you say all sorts of things, what you're going to do or not. Still, then when you come to the office, you realize that the limitations of the office are a little bit different than you had foreseen or that some of the circumstances are different. So you have to be able to adjust your goals, adjust your plans. But even when you have to do that, you have to keep in mind that you shouldn't be adjusting your values, that the values are those who have to carry you forward. And the values are those who give you that inner moral compass to be able to conclude a difficult job.
Scott Allen 23:32
Well, let's, let's go down the road a little bit of influence for a moment because I think, to your point, so much of, at least in the States, you know, President Trump is elected, President Obama is elected, President Biden is elected, and they sign all the executive orders they can in the first couple of days, and then it gets down to influence.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 23:51
Yes. Working across the two aisles.
Scott Allen 23:56
What are some reflections you have on the challenges of influencing factions of people or individuals? Maybe there are some hints or tips that you have that you came across that you found have worked for you when it comes to influencing others. But at least one definition I've used of leadership is "the process of influencing others toward a common vision." And when we have all of these competing commitments and conflicting priorities that influence the process, that's a challenge.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 24:28
You have to be persistent. You have to be patient, and you have to be creative most of the time. So in Croatia, as President, it's not like the US. You don't have all of those executive powers and lay the frustration of what I was doing because I was the highest directly elected official by the people. I was accountable to the people. I had huge expectations of myself, and people had huge expectations of me. And then you find out that you can't deliver because you don't have the powers to do so. The executive power is with the government and with the Prime Minister, and you often have to negotiate to be able to carry out some of your, at least of your, projects. And that is, and it's not just particular to Croatia it pertains to any situation in the world, is that when you come up with a proposal with a plan, or with an initiative, it's not always welcomed as something that people would like to cooperate on, and take as joint victory or gain afterward, sometimes it's just perceived as competition and negative competition. And it's just you're sidelined, or you're ridiculed, and you're taken out of context, etc. There were several discussions in Croatia - difficult issues. And I will just make a couple of points just single out two of them. One is education reform. So there was a change of government in, well, during my presidency, actually, three governments changed in five years. So you can imagine there was a lot of time when the government was just going on autopilot. And there was practically no one to talk to during the election and pre-election and immediately post-election time before the government was formed. So the group of people who - the Commission who had been working on the education reform, which we badly needed, to adopt the modern standards and requirements of the 21st century. They were considered by the new government as political appointees, etcetera, which wasn't the case. So there was a lot of friction between the new Minister of Education and the president, the head of that commission, who was who enjoyed a lot of public support. And, of course, it was a lot of pressure from different groups in society for or against the reform, etc. So I had to deal with those pressures. And I had to; I want it to put everybody back together at the same table for them to continue working because it's really about the country's future. And then I invited them at a crucial point, I invited them to my office, and I set them together, and I said, "Okay, let's work this out, let's iron this out, let's try to find a way forward, some compromise how we can proceed. So not everything that has been done is just destroyed or thrown away." And then the second situation is a demographic situation in Croatia. We're aging, the number of people is on the decline, the number of workforces and, most importantly, is on the decline. And young people are leaving, there's a lot of 'brain drain' from Croatia, because of opportunities I young people can study and work everywhere in the European Union. And that is quite understandable. For some, you know, they were not happy in Croatia, but the circumstances they lived in, but for most was using the opportunity you can study and work elsewhere, which I would be the first person to do. And I was an exchange student in Los Alamos, New Mexico, and 85-86 when it was a lot more difficult to do. And I completely understand those young people. You know, we're losing them right now. And we want to bring them back with all of their experience and everything that they will have learned in their new environments. And then people were telling me, okay, few things that there's an emergency situation with demographics, why don't you present your own demographic strategy? And my advisors told me, "yeah, okay, I'm going to do it." So I said, I was going to do it, I come back to the office, and I tell my advisors, you know, we'd have to start working on that demographic strategy and said, "What do you mean? We're not capable of doing that." And I said, "Why did you tell me to tell people that I was, I was going to do it? When I say that I'm going to do something, I will do that. And that's it." So I ultimately ended up locking up at my office up on the Hill that we called Pantovcak in Zagreb for about ten days to two weeks; I did not leave the office, I canceled most of my meetings, all the travel, and I would sleep at my office, I would eat there, I was reading all the previous demographic strategies, demographic strategies of a number of countries and I produce my own that was about 70-so pages in length, it was a thorough analysis of the reasons why people are leaving and the way forward how to tackle those issues. And it had a plan - a short, medium, and long-term plan for its implementation. Of course, I'm not an expert in demography, although had I had the time to actually put references since it would have been a solid academic work that I could
Scott Allen 30:04
Your dissertation!
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 30:05
Yes, my dissertation, but I didn't have the time to reference it. So it was rather... and now it remains as such. And of course, the media did not understand and that's the problem is that most journalists are not educated enough in those issues to be able to understand. Their only question was, "how much is all that going to cost?" Of course, I had foreseen that they would be asking that question. And then I put the answer up on the slide, saying, "Well, how much does future cost?" But of course, you know, because there, unfortunately, there was no cooperation from the government to actually implement, they set up their commission that is still working, so I produced the strategy in the matter in a matter of 10 to 14 days, and they're still working on it. That is an example of negative cooperation and part of the government. Yeah, we did have a meeting where we presented the strategy, but for them, it was okay, "you know, we're going to do our own." Yeah. And a third example where creativity is involved. You mentioned one of your presidents, Donald Trump, who was president during four years of the term of my five-year term - obviously, I had to work with him. And I resorted to these very practical elements. You know, Croatia is not really high on top of the priority list for the US. So I had to use every opportunity when I would meet with him to put items on the agenda. And I would create these little papers, kind of like cheat sheets if you want to use language from high school. And I would write, you know, "Visa Waiver," and where we are, what needs to be done, Avoidance of Double Taxation Treaty, where we are, what needs to be done military cooperation, etc. And then I would give those to President Trump and put them in his inside pocket of his suit. And actually, they would be he'd give them to his colleagues in the office. And we continue to do the work. So Croatia, today, is part of the Visa Waiver Program; we don't need these for tourist visits to the US. The Avoidance of Double Taxation Treaty is basically here. So you know, you have to find ways how to make use of those 20, sometimes 20 seconds, sometimes a few minutes, sometimes about a half hour of the time, where you meet the president, how to actually focus his attention on what needs to be done. And don't assume that he will remember what you tell him. No, because he's only human; none of us can remember everything, you know, the president of the US, he gets everybody around him to tell him what needs to be done. So with these little cheat sheets, these little pieces of paper that I would write very successfully, I made a point of focusing not just his attention but the attention of the administration and things that needed to be done.
Scott Allen 32:57
Well, and that's a great example of creativity and influence, right, creative approaches to influencing and getting some of those smaller wins to build the relationship. And I think it's wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. Okay, what's interesting about - I imagine that as President of Croatia, you are finding yourself in these situations like meeting with the President of the United States, and any number of other situations over the time that you served in that role? Is there one that stands out for you? Is just a unique experience that you'll never forget, something that you thought, "wow, this is my life right now."
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 33:39
There are quite a few, as a matter of fact, and experiences with people in Croatia. Just traveling around Croatia was not always the most rewarding. But you know, when you think about perhaps the single out, you know, you mentioned President Trump. To get to that political side, we talk a lot about the strained relationship between the two sides of the Atlantic. So I witnessed a few situations where things were very close to falling apart. And when I read about those situations in the media, then I think back, and I think of what was said, and what was done around the table of reserves are things that I cannot talk about publicly. But you're somehow a witnes to history, history in the making. And the second situation that has sort of given me world fame - which I'm not sure that I should be happy about - because you want to be remembered by the things that you have done as a human being and as a leader - But I'm mostly remembered for cheering the Croatian team during the World Cup in Russia in 2018. So that was a great experience for me. But on the other hand, also for a country like Croatia, which is not big geographically in the number of people, for the President to be known all over the world for happy, candid behavior, for team spirit, for reaching across those divide lines. Okay, we played the game. Unfortunately, we did not win in the finals. But we did not win gold, but we won the hearts of people around the world. That was incredible. So for me, that is definitely something that I will never forget.
Scott Allen 35:21
Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, I always close down the conversation by just asking guests what they've been reading, streaming, or maybe they've been listening to something that's really stood out for them. Is there anything in recent times it's caught your attention?
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 35:37
Yes, definitely. Of course, we all watch Netflix. I joke that I became 'Netflix Chick' in 2020. I left the office on February 18. And then the pandemic struck in mid-March, and we were in lockdown after an incredibly busy adrenaline-filled life. I was stuck in my apartment. And then, I subscribed to Netflix for the first time. And then I watched everything, all the movies, all the TV shows, and had nothing to do for months. And then we started with these zoom conferences then and VTCs, which changed things, but lately, I watched Lady Chatterley's Lover just a few days ago. However, I have to say it does not compare to the - I love D. H. Lawrence, I love to read D. H. Lawrence and I just you know the movie - It does not...you don't get that, that that the spirit of the book in the movie. But what I've been really into is listening to everything that comes out of Ukraine. And I'm a native speaker of Croatian; I understand most Slavic languages to a certain degree. And by now, unfortunately, because of the war, I understand Ukrainian pretty well. I can get by speaking in these life situations, real-life situations. So I've been reading a lot about Ukraine, and I've been mostly on YouTube, but on telegram in other channels following on what young people have been doing and their art as well. And I have great respect for Slava Vakarchuk, who's one of the most famous Ukrainian pop singers, but also for their other poop stars and for Ukrainian traditional folk music. So I'm kind of I listen to that kind of music. And I make an effort to really understand the words and to really understand what they're saying and the national pride and the love for Ukraine that they display.
Scott Allen 37:31
Again, back to that lifelong learning. There are so many different dimensions to learn. And I love that you're focusing on some of the cultural elements. But then also, of course, staying very, very close to tune to what's actually happening in the developments. Talk about a complex leadership challenge that is not far away from your door, that's for sure.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 37:56
Absolutely. For me, it also brings back so many memories. And we had I lived a similar life. Again, the war started in Croatia when I was 23 years old. It was on a different level than Ukraine. However, it is so similar in so many aspects. So I truly understand the complexities and how difficult it will be to resolve not just the conflict, but the post-conflict situation, peacebuilding, and reconstruction, but also reconciliation and the war crimes and everything else that comes into play when you deal with a complex situation like that. The only thing that I can tell you right now is that certainly when I was in Ukraine in December for a semi-official visit, and what I can tell you is they will not stop fighting. They're incredibly motivated because they're defending their country. And we hope that the war ends as well.
Scott Allen 39:01
Yes, very powerful statement. Well, maybe we end there. I am so thankful, Madam President, for your time today for being with me to talk about leadership, a lot of these different nooks and crannies that we explored. I hope you'll come back sometime. We have a lot more to discuss. I just so appreciate your willingness to come on. And thank you for your service. Thank you for your service.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 39:24
Thank you. Thank you so much. I will remain in the service of Croatia and at the service of humanity - regardless of what official office I hold.
Scott Allen 39:35
Well, that's an incredible way to be. That's an incredible way to be.
Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović 39:38
Thank you, and all the best to you.
Scott Allen 39:42
Bye bye
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