Steve Grubbs is the founder of VictoryXR, VictoryStore.com, ChalkBites, and Victory Enterprises. He is a proud member of the Young Presidents' Organization (YPO). Early in his life, Steve served as Chairman of the House Education Committee in the Iowa House of Representatives and passed the largest technology funding bill in state history. Today, he's working to create a place for a virtual reality curriculum in schools. Steve has degrees in business and law from the University of Iowa.
Connecting with Steve
A Quote From This Episode
Resources
Connect with Scott Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Steve Grubbs is the founder of VictoryXR, VictoryStore.com, ChalkBites, and Victory Enterprises. He is a proud member of the Young Presidents' Organization (YPO). Early in his life, Steve served as Chairman of the House Education Committee in the Iowa House of Representatives and passed the largest technology funding bill in state history. Today, he's working to create a place for a virtual reality curriculum in schools. Steve has degrees in business and law from the University of Iowa.
Connecting with Steve
A Quote From This Episode
Resources
Connect with Scott Allen
My Approach to Hosting
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast wherever you are in the world. Thank you for checking in. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good morning. And today's conversation is going to kind of jettison us into...and it's not just the future, Steve. It's kind of the present! And for some of us, it's going to feel like the future. But everything we're going to discuss today is happening right now. And I have a guest today, who I met probably about eight months ago. His name is Steve Grubbs. And he is the president of Victory XR. He spends his time in Iowa and Austin. He has a background in politics and has worked on presidential campaigns. I know he is passionate about public speaking. But he is also passionate about education and passionate about thinking differently about how we deliver education. So he has been engaged in this project around metaversities. And we're going to dive deep into that conversation today. And many of you are already wondering, well, what is a metaversity? We're gonna get there. But for now, Steve, what else do people need to know about you, sir?
Steve Grubbs 1:14
My father was a schoolteacher. So I started out with a real focus on education in my life. I went to this great elementary school, but a few years after I attended it, they closed it. So I bought my elementary school. And today, not only do I play basketball, once to twice a week there, but we are also building the School of the Future from my school of the past.
Scott Allen 1:38
Really? So you bought the school?
Steve Grubbs 1:42
The school building? Yes, exactly. So then I decided, Well, where am I going to put my office? You know, and everybody thinks below the principal's office, of course, since you're the CEO, but I actually chose the teacher's lounge because the teacher's lounge had its own private bathroom. And I thought that was more for me.
Scott Allen 2:06
Okay, well, let's jump into metaversities. So, bring listeners into your world. You are...I'm going to put your contact information in the show notes so people can connect with you because you're always posting really interesting content. But why don't you bring listeners into your world a little bit?
Steve Grubbs 2:25
Sure. So in my worldview, I'm a serial entrepreneur. But I also have a focus on trying to make the world a better place, which is why I tried my hand for a while being a state legislator in the state of Iowa. And then, I determined that maybe entrepreneurship is a little faster process, something that let me would let me move at my own pace. So what I know is that we have a new generation of students that are entering college that are entering the workforce and what I call the fortnight generation, this is a generation; if you talk to the folks who own fortnight epic, they have 400 million registered users. And that's, that's extraordinary. If you think about it, that's almost more than 5% of the people in the world have an account with Fortnight. And so this generation of students, they view the world differently than those that came previously, you know, and when I was young, get on our bikes, we'd all go hang out at a friend's house, and we would, or we would drive, but today the fortnight generation is just as likely to head to the room or basement and, and hop on a computer and join their friends in a virtual world, whether it's Roblox or fortnight or, or some other place. And higher education has not kept up with that, you know, higher education is just now really manifesting itself into zoom. And most mostly because it was forced upon them. The real issue is this generation of students expects an immersive learning environment, and we can talk more later about what that is - But essentially, a Metaverse is the combination of Metaverse and university, put them together, and you have metaversity. So it's pretty straightforward, but the whole concept of education in the metaverse needs to be broken down a little bit.
Scott Allen 4:26
Well, you're speaking to my, to my lived reality right now, Steve; I have a daughter who's in seventh grade. And she had an elective kind of robotics elective, and that hasn't resonated for her the other two electives. There are others she could take, but the other two that she's kind of looking at. One is a Roblox elective where they're actually learning to code some of the games in Roblox, and the other option is Minecraft and the worlds that my girls are building. It's incredible. I mean, it's absolutely incredible. The energy and the enthusiasm we have to keep them to two hours a day. That's what you get for screentime two hours a day, your after-school time; we're gonna get our homework done, nd then you have some time after dinner; if you haven't gotten your homework done, you got two hours, and they are just enthralled in these spaces. So, and my son, he is what you were describing, on a Friday night, he might be down in our basement, and he's on with four or five friends, and they're talking, and they're, they're chattering, but they're playing a game, they're playing something, whether it's MLB, or it's more of a fortnight type game. That's what they're immersed in.
Steve Grubbs 5:38
I don't know if you're old enough, but we would go to the mall, or we would go to an arcade, and we'd all stand around one machine, and we'd game, but we couldn't game together immersively, which is what these kids do not. So a lot of people are very critical of kids going into their basement and hopping into a game with their friends, but it's really no different than us going to the mall and standing around an arcade machine. Exactly.
Scott Allen 6:03
waiting for your turn. The Pac-Man or Space Invaders or whatever it was at the time. I couldn't agree more. Right. And so I can see very clearly. And with the advent of eSports, I think my university just started an esports team. You've got now some other things like drone racing that are occurring. So there are some shifts because it is a paradigm shift to think of someone being on scholarship for esports. But for listeners, just look up the numbers. Esports is probably more popular than the film industry, and the music industry combined. I mean, the amount of energy and enthusiasm around eSports. It's incredible. So I think I think you are on to something that this generation has grown up immersed in that. And it aligns with, in some ways, how they want to learn.
Steve Grubbs 7:00
Yeah, that's exactly right. And so our point to universities and colleges is, what you see nationally, at least in the United States, are you see online courses growing quickly. And you see on-campus enrollment in a slight decline or a steady one of the two. But look at, for example, Western Governors University or University of Maryland global. You know, Western Governors has over 130,000 registered students taking courses; University of Maryland global, I think, is it 60 or 70,000? So these are large universities with people who are pursuing higher education in a nontraditional way.
Scott Allen 7:39
Well, I was speaking with someone in a K 12 context because we've actually, you and I have discussed coming to John Carroll in the spring and speaking at an event that we're organizing, and one of the women on the committee, she's in the superintendent's office at a K 12 institution in Ohio. And she really perked up when she heard about metaversity. She was She said, You know what? Access to education for our students. It's important, and it's critical. And this is an interesting potential solution if I could take a course at the University of Maryland Global Campus or Purdue global. Wow. I mean, that opens up a lot of opportunities, right, rather than the local community college or some other brick-and-mortar option that is more difficult for me to get to.
Steve Grubbs 8:30
Well, even the local community colleges are now starting to offer Metaverse courses. So think about this, you know, you, let's say you're studying history, and you're learning about, you know, Chinese history. Well, wouldn't it be great one day in class to everybody hop into the transport portal and head over to the Great Wall of China and stand on the Great Wall of China and learn about it together as a class in the building looked down, up all around, and it says if you're actually there. So, you know, it is not only a more inclusive way to learn, but it's a better way to learn in many instances.
Scott Allen 9:13
Well, even as I listened to my son, I mean, this podcast, in large part, is around leadership. And we're not really focused there today. dead on. But I do think listeners who pay close attention to even what we've discussed, if I have my son with five friends, and they're engaged in some common activity or common task, well, there's a whole bunch of leadership concepts happening. And I've said this on the podcast in the past, where he is organizing the team, he's strategizing, he's thinking critically, you and five other students standing on the Great Wall, looking up, down, and around and learning about the Great Wall at that moment, or literally anywhere in the world, or of this planet quite frankly, because we could probably go to Mars as well. And Mars is an option. The moon, it's a different shared experience that is just as valuable, with a number of opportunities embedded in it. You
Steve Grubbs 10:16
know, I was also a high school debate coach for ten years, and I was previously a high school debater. And we are working on a debate tournament in the metaverse. But, even more than that, we are working on a public speaking VR experience that allows people to stand in front of a crowd of people to give a speech and then use some AI. Essentially, some AI, you know, about to get live, instant feedback on how that speech went. And to me that that's a pretty cool solution where you can actually practice giving your speech or, you know, for your rotary or Toastmasters or high school speaker, learn to speak in this Metaverse experience,
Scott Allen 11:05
and you're gonna get the number of arms you said, and you're gonna get the pace of speaking. And what were some keywords that would communicate enthusiasm, optimism, and joy. I mean, there are so many different...I was listening to something recently, and you were speaking with someone about even some of the opportunities when it comes to classes like biology. Would you talk a little bit about that? Sure.
Steve Grubbs 11:28
Well, it's duck butter cadaver lab - Haven't we all wanted to be in a human cadaver lab and hold a heart in our hands? Most, not. The reality is that for biology majors or health science majors, cadaver labs have an important learning function. But they're very expensive; most small colleges cannot afford a cadaver lab didn't have the staff or the space or the expenses to be great, so we built a cadaver lab. And in our cadaver lab, the students will gather around the human body; the professor can take your hand, plunge it into the chest, pull out the human heart, and then hand it to the student next to her now. Now in the real world. That student standing 12 inches away from her in the cadaver lab might actually be 1200 miles away from her. But in the cadaver lab, everybody's right next to each other. So she hands the human heart, and that student takes it and begins expanding the heart until it's 10 feet tall; then the professor and the students step inside that human heart. They examine the ventricles and the cavities. And the professor says, Oh, but wait, there's one more thing, and she produces a diseased human heart; then they step inside the diseased human heart and compare the two and take all the lessons that we need from that. So there's so much that can be learned from science and history, and art, and even literature, which is pretty cool.
Scott Allen 12:53
Talk about literature a little bit; what do you see in that space, Steve?
Steve Grubbs 12:56
So most American high school students and a lot of students around the world read To Kill a Mockingbird famous movie famous book with a lot of really valuable lessons built into it. And really, the culminating location in the book is the courtroom. And in the courtroom, the black citizens had to sit in the balcony, the White Citizens sat on the floor, and yet a jury box in a judge seat near the attorneys; we rebuilt that courtroom so that students can understand what it was like to listen to the closing remarks and to, you know, you know, once they've read the book, or maybe when they're getting near the end, they can go and have a discussion and understand the book. And some students might sit in the balcony; some might sit on the floor, and some might sit in the jury box. However, the teacher structures that educational lesson, and what we know from data is that students who learn lessons like these in virtual reality retain more information, gain more empathy, and their grades go up.
Scott Allen 14:06
Wow, talk a little bit about empathy. How else have you seen extended reality used to facilitate empathy? I mean, I've heard some of some really interesting applications, maybe PTSD. I've heard of, you know, situations where maybe we have a veteran who's come back, and we're using some of these platforms to help address issues like that. What are some examples of empathy? This is interesting.
Steve Grubbs 14:31
You know, there's a famous quote by Stalin, I think, where he said it would cause millions of people to die. It's this statistic. When one person dies, it's a tragedy. So think in terms of learning about the Holocaust. You know, we're all kids. We're, we're middle schoolers, and we're developing our sense of empathy. And we hear 6 million people died. Well, I can't really get my head around 6 million when I'm 14 years old. Many students read Anne Frank's diary to sort of gain empathy for that one person in one unit, one experience created by a company other than ours; they rebuilt Anne Frank's home. And so that not only do you read the book, but you can go and experience and learn up close about her life and understand learn that empathy. So, so that's, you know, you have that, and then you've got a lot of some companies that spend their time shooting 360 videos from places in the world that not only have we never been there, but we would never go. Because you know, you think about, you know, when you go to the Middle East, you might go to Egypt, you might go to Petra, in Jordan, you might go to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Very few people are going into the West Bank, you hear in the news, and it's violent. So what if we could stand on the West Bank and experience that life and see first-person interviews with people that are there? It certainly allows us to better understand the situation.
Scott Allen 16:10
What are you hearing from leaders as you talk about this? What are some of the pushbacks that you hear on a day in day out basis, as you're talking with leaders,
Steve Grubbs 16:18
you know, mostly, what we don't hear is that it's a bad idea. Most people get it; they understand that this is the direction in which the world is moving. But we do get pushback on his prioritization. A lot of schools are still just trying to figure out zoom and remote learning from a 2d perspective; very few have the resources and people in place to move forward with an immersive 3d learning environment, like a med diversity, but we are okay with that. You know, we're looking for early adopters, and of the 1000 universities out there, we're happy to be working with the first 100 to 200 that are ready and willing to move into the space that has progressive Chancellor's or Dean's or president's whatever the case might be professors. And that's where we want to start. So mostly, it's a prioritization issue. A lot of them, sometimes we hear issues about what if somebody doesn't like a VR headset. Well, that's not a problem because you can join in on a PC. What about the cost? We want to ask every student to pay $100 a semester to attend a metaversity. And so, you know, they have to think about how they'll fold that into existing expenses that are already part of the semester expense payment. So those are really what we hear. But you know, most people in higher ed understand that this is the future outside of higher ed. There's a whole group of people who really hate the technological future. They don't want people to gather together in a Metaverse; they want us to all just get together in person, which sounds great. Just not so realistic.
Scott Allen 18:02
Well, you mentioned something that I think I know is on your radar assessment. You had shared some that weren't statistics, but they were findings like, look, they're learning more, they're more engaged. You shared some of that a little bit ago. And I think every institution of higher learning is really focused on assurance of learning, the Higher Learning Commission not losing accreditation, ensuring that the students are really truly leaving their institution has grown and developed; what do you see on that front? I mean, when it comes to assessment, what are some unique and interesting things that you have going on that we can do in admin diversity? That is more difficult when we're together. Does anything come to mind?
Steve Grubbs 18:45
Sure, lots. First of all, we just retained a firm to take a look at what we're doing, provide an objectively measured standard, look at the results and provide feedback and suggestions on how we can improve the product. So that's first, but second, we have a really good case study from Morehouse College, which was the world's first full metaversity. They had Professor Odell Hamilton, United States Navy retired. He teaches world history. And he taught the exact same course, the exact same professor in a brick-and-mortar class through a Zoom portal and through hit the metaverse the campus. Then at the end of each course, he measured three things. Student engagement is measured by attendance; students said a survey measures student satisfaction, and student performance is measured by their grades. In all three of those, the metaversity campus was head and shoulders. Above that, all of this data is on our website at Victory xr.com If you want to look at the exact data that came out of this case study, but for us, that was a pretty good start. And we're certain that some professors probably doing it better. Some professors are not doing it as well. And so, what we need to understand is what really makes for an effective, impactful metaversity class? How do you maximize the opportunity?
Scott Allen 20:14
Well, take us through that experience. I probably should have started here, Steve. We're a little late in the conversation. But are you creating a digital twin of Morehouse? It literally looks like the physical campus? Can I walk into room 222? Is that a thing?
Steve Grubbs 20:33
Not all schools go with the digital twin replica campus, but most do. And so we will build a digital twin of five to seven building exteriors, and to interiors, okay, and so that's, I mean, that's package number one, people can certainly purchase more than that. But that's sort of the base package plus the grounds. The grounds are very important to universities because they spend a lot of time making them perfect and beautiful. And so you can put on the headset and land right there on the campus quad and walk to class. And once you get to class, your professor will be there, and their students will be there. And then what really happens here is you have to have a couple of different things. First of all, you have to have a well-trained professor, so we have a professional development program. Second, you need a learning space. And so the learning space might be, for example, on Morehouse College campus, they have their chemistry lab, University of Kansas School of Nursing, they have their nursing labs, whether it's Cal State, West Virginia, Alabama a&m, we're building rooms for all of these plus we offer 70 classrooms that are of our own that anybody can use. So, for example, let's say you're learning astronomy; maybe you want to use the starship, transport up through the Star Trek-style transporter up to the starship, and then put on your spacesuit and take a spacewalk. Pretty cool. You're learning paleontology; maybe you're going to learn that on Dinosaur Island. If you are learning ancient Egyptian history, maybe you're going to go to the Egyptian Museum. Yeah, there are 70 of these. And I could go on and on about it, but I won't professional development, learning rooms, and then you need the 3d objects. So let's say, for example, you're in comparative anatomy. And you're comparing the physiology and anatomy of a pig to a human, which I'm told, is fairly common, you know, you've got the pig. Here, you have the human here, and you can pull up the organs, you can examine them, you can dissect them, whatever the case might be so that you understand the difference between in that comparative anatomy class. So those are the 3d models that heart that pig heart and that human heart have to be modeled by graphic artists that specialize in 3D graphics. So we create that, and that's going to be both the inside of the heart and the outside of the heart. So then we add on the field trips, so you can take field trips; we have 150 field trips all over the world, from the redwood forest to Iceland, to China, to a dairy farm in Iowa to learn genetics. It's pretty cool.
Scott Allen 23:16
As you think about developing leaders, what are some opportunities? What are some things that you see as options for someone who's interested in developing leadership and helping people be more successful when serving in these challenging roles that we find ourselves in? Again, I love the Speech and Debate module and the communication module presentation skills; those are some great examples. Are there other things that come to mind for you as possibilities that may not yet exist?
Steve Grubbs 23:46
So first of all, let's talk a little bit about leadership more broadly because, as we both know, there are different types of leaders, there are the public charismatic leaders, and then there are the private leaders, who lead a small group of two or three, but the two things that they all must have. Everybody must have to be a leader is one you have to be able to communicate what you're thinking. Second, you don't want what you're thinking to be stupid. So you got to be a good critical thinker. So critical thinking skills be getting those thoughts out of your brain to come out of your mouth to other people. Once you have those two things, then it's just a matter of desire. Do you want to lead or not? Some people just naturally don't want to lead. You start there now; in virtual reality or education in the metaverse, one of the really amazing things that we can do is we can build out scenarios. For example, we have this wonderful assessment gamified experience adventure called the king's labyrinth. And there are 10 Then gates you have to get through, you can take a team of 2345 with you through these, and you have to, and it's an actual maze, just like, you know, one, you'd scratch out on paper. So you have to find your way through the maze. And there's a lot of problem-solving. But then, when you get to each gate, there is a question that has to be answered. Now, it might be something that you've learned in that semester's class, or you might choose critical thinking, and you have to figure out the answer. Answer it correctly to answer correctly; you can take the path to the root of the gate open, and take the path to the next area. If not, you die a horrible death. And you go back to the last case. So
Scott Allen 25:39
I'm thinking of, and you're making me think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail where, you know, he, he asked, he's asked his favorite color. And I think he says blue. No, I mean green. Oh!!!
Steve Grubbs 25:51
that's exactly it. You know, it's, it's sort of a fun, fun, sort of horrible death. You know, it's all gamified and fun. But you know, ultimately, if you succeed, get your team through the whole thing. You make it to the king's layer, and I won't tell you what's in the king's lair. But it's, you know, some fun little easter eggs and things like that. And it's this really grand experience to get that far.
Scott Allen 26:14
Wow. Communication, clarifying and communicating your ideas, and thinking critically. Does anything else come to mind when it comes to developing leaders? I would just even the possibilities. I mean, I'm thinking of team-building activities. And I think what you just described is probably something it could be framed as a team-building activity, for sure. But yet, regarding the data that could be data gathered in this space, are we recording people's conversations? Is that possible?
Steve Grubbs 26:44
We are very, very careful about that. Because people are very sensitive to recording data, once we don't right now, once we do, it will be one of those fully disclosed deals, and you have to choose to have your data measured so that we can make some decisions there. So, for example, when we build in the speech, AI, yeah, that'll be one of those moments, when we say, Look, if you're going to learn to speak, we're gonna have to give you some feedback, that means we're gonna have to record what you're doing. So give us your assent. But yeah, if you think about leadership, you know, another very important piece is empathy - people who use their leadership skills to care for others to make the world a better place. So the art, as we talked about earlier, it's a great place to add that component of empathy.
Scott Allen 27:45
When I imagine if we sat here and started thinking through whether it's emotional intelligence, whether it's negotiation skills, whether it's influence tactics, and I mean, we could probably start getting into some really cool conversations about these different dimensions and these different skills required. I think there's such an interesting opportunity for listeners; please listen to the episode with George banks. Next, if you have not listened to that episode, please listen to that episode. There are some very important clues and opportunities in this conversation that can tie back to what George is interested in when it comes to leadership, some of the behaviors that we're interested in seeing displayed and really quantifying that, Steve, I always close these conversations out by asking my guests what they're listening to what they're streaming, what's caught their attention recently, it may have something to do with what we've just discussed, it may have nothing to do with what we've just discussed, but what's been catching your eye recently,
Steve Grubbs 28:50
My big challenge is trying to figure out how to take this idea. We're currently at 40 colleges and universities around the world and a lot of high schools. But as CEO, I have to be prepared to take it to the next level. So you know, if things roll out the way we think, there'll be over 1000 schools in five years that have their own university. So what I am trying to do is to improve my skill set as a CEO, which requires a lot of team building, communication and a lot of critical thinking, managing finances and sales, and all of that. So I just finished a book by Frank van Sloot called amping up. He's successfully two companies that were at two, two much larger companies. And so that's been helpful, and then I listen to a number of podcasts but the NPR podcast how we built this. So I love that one. It's...you know, the thing about being an entrepreneur is you have to get up every morning. Positively focused, maybe Five mornings a year, I wake up, and I just think, this is too big, this is just too much. And those days, it's hard to be successful. The other 360 days a year, I have this uncanny ability to wake up saying, Wow, we're gonna really make this go. And so that positivity matters. And so, that podcast helps me remain positive. Well,
Scott Allen 30:20
I'm excited to follow your adventures. Are we going to get to this 1000 In five years? That's going to be so fascinating to watch it play out. For listeners, again, there's a link in the show notes to Steve's LinkedIn page; you can follow him. And he's constantly posting about this space. And if you're curious, if you want to learn a little bit more, see who's involved. He's named some of the schools that are involved and engaged, but just see how they're applying this technology. And he's very, very different and unique and impactful ways. There's a lot of opportunity here. There's a lot of opportunity to hear, and I think, probably something you come across, Steve, and I'd love to know just your general opinion on this. I don't know that you're suggesting that this takeover everything. But in the suite of opportunities that exist. This is an important opportunity in the life cycle of someone's education is a tool. It's an important tool that's available to us that we could be using to be more successful and ultimately help people learn, right?
Steve Grubbs 31:24
Yeah, so So first, people can not your listeners can also email me, steve@victoryxr.com. That's pretty straightforward and easy. But second, I liken it to airline pilots. Would you really want to be in a jet with a pilot who has successfully passed their simulator training? Probably not. And so what we provide is really that simulation, you know, it's the consequences are low for failure. So in our nursing programs, you know, administering drugs or attaching machines to patients, or phlebotomy, or whatever the case might be, the consequences for failure are low. And so, start in the simulated world and move to the real world.
Scott Allen 32:14
Great. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man. And good luck, keep exploring, and thanks for the work that you do.
Steve Grubbs 32:24
Thank you, Scott. I appreciate it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai