Dr. Scott J. Allen & Dr. Tony Middlebrooks - Stay Curious

Scott J. Allen, Ph.D., is the Robert M. Ginn Institute Professor for Leadership & Social Responsibility at John Carroll University. Allen is an associate professor and teaches courses in leadership, the future of work, and executive communication. He's an award-winning professor passionate about working with people of all ages.

Scott has published more than 50 book chapters and peer-reviewed journal articles. He is the co-author of The Little Book of Leadership Development: 50 Ways to Bring Out the Leader in Every Employee, Emotionally Intelligent Leadership: A Guide for College Students, and the textbook Discovering Leadership: Designing Your Success (2019). Scott’s most recent publication is Captovation: Online Presentations by Design.

In addition to writing and teaching, Scott consults, facilitates workshops, and leads retreats across industries. Recent engagements include Key Bank, EY, Siegfried Group, Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Sherwin Williams, Progressive, NASA-Glenn, FedEx Custom Critical, Toyota, Crestron, Endeavor Energy Resources, Thompson Hine LLP, Southern Methodist University, Cleveland Clinic, and Leadership Cleveland.

Scott co-founded Captovation, a services firm dedicated to “Presentation Coaching for the Digital Age.” He is also the co-founder and Board Chair of the Collegiate Leadership Competition. He has served on the board of the International Leadership Association, Association of Leadership Educators, and Management and Organizational Behavior Teaching Society. Allen was named an ILA Fellow by the International Leadership Association in 2021.

He resides in Chagrin Falls, Ohio, with his wife, Jessica, and three children - Will, Kate & Emily.

Articles 

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About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 

My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.

About Dr. Tony Middlebrooks (Guest Host)

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Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. This is episode 150. And probably about like episode 87 Tony Middlebrooks looked at me and said, has anyone interviewed you yet? And I kind of filed that back and repress the thought. And, you know, I saw him a few weeks back at the ILA conference. And you know what? I said, Hey, let's try this. Let's provide an opportunity to reflect on what 150 episodes has looked like. Of course, he has been a guest. And he is a clinical professor of leadership at the University of Florida. He spent 17 years at the University of Delaware. He is a co-author of mine, a good friend, and a mentor. I was talking about a session he used to do with the ILA about completing your dissertation. And I just thought, "oh, Tony Middlebrooks, he is He is a God of all things, dissertations." I was so impressed. And then I got to know him, you know?

Tony Middlebrooks  1:01  
You don't stand on the pedestal, Scott, so you don't fall off it!

Scott Allen  1:05  
Tony, I have a quick, funny story to tell you, which sums everything up for our whole conversation. So a friend of mine pulled me aside at the conference, when we were at the ILA, and wanted to have this kind of intense conversation about Phronesis and the origin of the name. And he started talking about Sofia, and we started getting really kind of deep into wisdom, dialogue. And so he spoke for probably about seven to 10 minutes, squatted in a room, and we were talking. So he got done with his 10 minutes and asked me this kind of very insightful question about wisdom. And I had to look at him and say, You know what, I've always liked just the phrase practical wisdom. I don't know Aristotle well, and you know what, there was no intentional thought behind the name other than I want it to be about practical wisdom. And you can see him get just a little bit disappointed.

Tony Middlebrooks  2:03  
I can tell you 150 episodes are probably caused for just a little bit more gray hair.

Scott Allen  2:11  
There's your practical wisdom. Exactly. So I had to let him down and say, You know what, I'm not an expert in wisdom. But I ended the conversation by saying, hey, you know what, if you want to come on and talk wisdom, we'd love to hear from you. So we'll see if he chooses to do that. But yeah, so today, you know, you are kind of in the driver's seat. And you are going to, we're going to turn the tables a little bit. And you know, I will I'll turn it over to you. And we'll see. I never get anxious about this. But I was a little bit anxious about this today. So I'm excited to see where the conversation goes,

Tony Middlebrooks  2:44  
then you definitely are in the passenger seat. Yeah, so I prepared quite a few questions because frankly, 150 times, you know, 3040 minutes of conversation and wisdom with folks who are very well accomplished in this field. There's got to be lots and lots of interesting stuff in there. And so we'll see what we can pull out in the next 40 minutes. I'd kind of like to ask you the most important question right up front, which is if Wheaties is the breakfast of champions, what is the breakfast of leaders? Scott Allen?

Scott Allen  3:22  
That would be Cocoa Puffs. Tony. Cookie Crisp? Right? What was going on in the 70s? When I was growing up? You were probably a young child then as well. It cookies for breakfast?

Tony Middlebrooks  3:34  
Yeah. Oddly, I continue that trend.

Scott Allen  3:40  
No, seriously, every Seinfeld joke, right? Cookies for breakfast for real?

Tony Middlebrooks  3:46  
Yeah. But in all seriousness, the big reveal question. Let's just put the big answer right up front. What would you call this episode? What is the big overall theme that came out of this adventure?

Scott Allen  3:58  
Hmm, overall theme. What would I call this app this episode? What would we call it? You know, the first thing that came to mind for me when and you know, you had sent me a couple of questions. You didn't send me that one, though. Tony Middlebrooks. But one of my answers to one of them was to Stay Curious. And I think that there's a word that I've just fallen in love with, which is curiosity. And there's so much in that word. And I think something that's really intimidating about this process. I'm not an expert in all of these things yet. I think we feel like we should be I thought entering this. You know, I've studied this stuff for 1520 years. I know about leadership. But Tony and I were in a conversation this morning, recording a podcast and just going to school. I was on the bus, right? And it was just an incredible learning experience. And so curiosity causes you to be vulnerable. Well, it keeps you in a place of wonder. It helps you kind of explore. So I've just fallen in love with the word curiosity. Maybe I would call the podcast curiosity next time "stay curious." Right.

Tony Middlebrooks  5:15  
Nice. Very nice. Well, and interestingly, you know, one of my questions for long after the essential ones is this notion that in leadership, we often feel leadership educators, practitioners, and scholars often feel compelled to be the expert, right? The little God, we come into an organization, we give advice and give guidance, and from Tim Harford's TED talk about trial and error and the god complex. It seems like around every corner; there's a leadership program or consultant who has that answer for you the answer? You know, I know you have lots of thoughts on the overall rise of leadership training. But I think the best answer is the one that you just gave, which prompts us to stay curious. So here's what I'm curious about. Give us the numbers. You know, 150 episodes, I got that. What else can you tell us about this grouping in the mass of information that you gathered?

Scott Allen  6:14  
This was actually kind of interesting. And it was a question that forced me to do a little bit of looking, not anything in great depth, but it was it was kind of telling some of the numbers here, you know, there are 150 episodes, roughly 62,000 downloads. That's 50,000 from North America, 7000. In Europe, 177 in South America, 18 130 in Oceania, and roughly 300 in Africa. 15 165 in Asia, right? So it's interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity; I thought, wow, I mean, who are some folks in South America that I could be having conversations with Africa. Obviously, an incredibly large continent with so much opportunity and so many wonderful things happening. So it really helped me frame. And I've had guests from Africa, and I've had guests from South America, but obviously, and no, nowhere near to the level that we've had from North America or Europe. And I think it kind of, in some ways, models, what we maybe see it's a fractal of what we maybe see the ILA very US-centric than some Europeans, some folks from Oceania. And then there's going to be smaller numbers from South America and Africa. So it's just interesting. That was now another kind of fun thing is 141 countries or territories. Wow, that's something I really love saying to my girls; I really am having this little bit of an internal dialogue right now, should I change the theme song because the theme song was just developed? This is another, you know, it was a pandemic project. And we had a lot of time on our hands. And I'd watched some videos about starting a podcast, and all of them said, Look, don't overthink your music. Don't overthink the title. Don't know. So he came up with practical wisdom. Don't overthink your logo - just go. And I had gone to the to my daughters who were probably, you know, nine or 10 at the time, and just said, Hey, you want to make a theme song? And they said yes. And it kind of became an afternoon and activity, this silly little thing? Well, you know, it's kind of fun. It's interesting. But 141 countries, it's fun to let the girls know that their voice is being heard all around the world, as people consume and take in the content from these just incredible people that I've had a chance to speak with, right?

Tony Middlebrooks  8:38  
Yeah, have you pulled out a world map and kind of put a few pins in there to give them a geography lesson

Scott Allen  8:44  
we should but have not.

Tony Middlebrooks  8:48  
That's kind of a professor II thing to do. Yeah, so most people took on sourdough. You decided to take on a podcast; little tougher to quit. And I'll be honest; I'm very impressed with your longevity. I mean, it is a lot of work. That requires consistent dedication. And there is a lot of fun to listen to, of course, but enough about your praises. Let's talk about your learnings. Yeah. So tell me some themes that kind of, in the general sense, seem to emerge across the many interviews that we'll get into the weeds a little bit later. But for now, what are some of the ones that maybe surprised you as emergent themes, and then some of the ones you were expecting?

Scott Allen  9:27  
Sure. You know, the overarching theme, I guess; Tony and I don't really know how to put this into words yet. But the podcast in some ways, I have a friend who has become a mentor because of this podcast. So he reached out; he was a listener. We now speak every two weeks roughly. Wow. I mean, just an incredible guy, and we dialogue a lot. And he loves the podcast, and one thing that he also says about the podcast is, you know, it's all over the place, and leadership is kind of all over the place. You know, I had an episode a couple of episodes of great conversations. with Andrew Tarvin humor that works. So we talked about comedy. And you can talk about shadow sides. And you can talk about Abraham Lincoln. And you can talk about adult learning and adult development and Dei, and you can talk about so many different transfers of training, you can talk about so many different topics, teams. And when I look at those different topics, it really does. So the whole, and that's really what I kind of think the master project is here, for me to try and get a better understanding of the major pieces. The big pieces that we have to have on our radar to be successful in doing this work. Is that the expertise literature, right? That's another little nook and cranny that we've gone down. And, so, I think that's probably the largest theme from week to week. I hope listeners appreciate the variety. But the variety can also be a little bit of a challenge because there's just so much now, obviously, with world events and events that are central to the United States, things like George Floyd's death, his murder. That definitely has been a theme when it comes to the topic of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You know, as we wrote our most recent second edition of the textbook, Tony, that emerged very much more as a theme and something that we focused on. And even I'm kind of amazed Tony at, as I look back at some of my old classes, or even some of the content of our textbook, as we were revising, we probably weren't doing a great job of honoring people from different cultures, different ethnicities, different genders in the ways that we need to, I was kind of brought up under this, you know, Hey, these are the leaders, and these are the examples and, and kind of unaware and not putting a critical eye to some of that. So I think that's something that very much is a theme and is come on the radar in a way that I wasn't necessarily expecting. I think this topic you and I were talking about that before we started. I don't know that eight years ago, we would have had followership on our tongues the way that we do. Now, I don't think that would have been a theme. I don't think that. And I don't know if this is just my own interest or if it's truly a theme. But I've had a lot of episodes around adult development. And some of this thinking around if you have an individual with more evolved levels of mental complexity, they, you know, this is the Robert Keegan in over our heads if we have people who are thinking at elevated levels of mental complexity and making sense of systems and, and holding competing values dialectical thinking, will they be? Will they be more successful in these pretty gnarly roles? Right? So the work of Eigel and Kuhnert. And Robert Kegan and Bill Torbert, that's an I have a whole series that's going to be coming out that with Jonathan Reams, where we really start exploring that topic in depth as just another nook and cranny of this whole conversation. So I think those are some of the themes with the larger theme of how do we make sense of this? And what are the most important pieces, because I think that has real, very real ramifications, Tony, for education.

Tony Middlebrooks  13:32  
Right. So it's, in many ways, this balance between trying to, for you as a leadership, educator practitioner, individual who is suddenly in a leadership position, to try to wrestle with that, on the one hand, the best fit. And on the other hand, those foundational pieces that maybe apply to everyone?

Scott Allen  13:53  
Well, here's something that I have; again, I don't have a perfect example here; maybe we could go with a surgeon or a pilot. And even those are imperfect because there just simply aren't the number of variables that exist when you have someone in a position of authority and say, you know, fortune 500 organization or a large nonprofit, but I go back to, and we've had some conversations about this and push back on this. I mean, I think it's when I'm going to try and become a pilot. There's a very clear scaffolding process. And when I'm going to become a surgeon, I don't start with hearts. But the first time I touch something, I'm probably on a gallbladder. And then it's about a decade of really intensive education and training that goes into me being in the right seats or the left seat of the 747 or me actually conducting this heart surgery, and then even there, you can start elevating. For me, it feels like, at times, people are walking into the conversation trying to have 747-type conversations before people have even flown a Cessna, and it's all over the place, and people don't have the scaffolding. And so then I think it is totally confusing, because just so we aren't clear ourselves and how we scaffold some of this. I go back to the Snowden and boon. I had them on the podcast. And it was a really fun conversation. But they have that famous HBR article. And they talk about four different types of problems that leaders face simple, complicated, complex, and chaotic. Well, you have a different set of tools and knowledge that is going to help you in each of those four categories. And, of course, I'm simplifying here, and that's simplifying. But it feels like we're all over the place. And there isn't a sense of how we're scaffolding this topic.

Tony Middlebrooks  15:49  
They're a great observation. And as you mentioned, because there's such a wide variety of folks that you've talked to, and the approaches and perspectives they've taken, that can be really overwhelming for anyone who, you know, I'm in a new leadership position. And here are a zillion books and a zillion podcasts, and a zillion pieces of advice. And to wade through all that, and as you said, scaffolded, or at least figured out a way to say, here are the basics. Let's start with the basics. And then you can pick your path.

Scott Allen  16:21  
Well, I often think, Tony, and this is a real concern. And so I've tried to invite practitioners to the podcast who maybe don't have a Ph.D. in leadership because I don't know that the average is another maybe theme. I don't know that the average leader would find this podcast practical wisdom. Well, I mean, next one thing, I think they could I think they could really, I think it's, I think it'd be valuable for them to listen to the conversations I totally do. But again, in some of these conversations, I'm entering at the deep end; I'm swimming and trying to stay afloat. And again, I can see a mid-level manager at a company, Y or nonprofit X and at some somewhere in the world. And it may not feel all that relevant to them, which I think I don't know. I mean, that's another interesting thing about our work right now as academics; that is, our work feels relevant. I had on I had a practitioner a few episodes back, a voracious learner. And this was just an interesting observation. His name is Ethan Braden, and I'd love Ethan. And he's awesome. As he was talking about his thought leaders, people he's consuming. There was only one academic on that list. You also have the KPMGs Deloitte, it's Bain -  the influencers, the Simon Sinek's, nothing against Simon Sinek. But they have an influence on the voice and relevance in the marketplace. I think because, at times, we haven't clearly made sense.

Tony Middlebrooks  18:03  
It Yeah. You know, those are some of the thought leaders slash influencers that I have been most impressed with people like Dan Pink, who, yeah, he doesn't do the research, but he translates the research so well into bite-sized practical tennents, to make not just your leadership better, but your life better. Your professional life.

Scott Allen  18:26  
Yeah. And then when you have like an Adam Grant, who's that insane translator and an awesome academic, right, that's, that's a really powerful combination. And those are a lot of my really favorite guests, those folks who have the Ph.D. and have the degree, but they're working at Intel, or they're working at an organization, and really trying to operationalize some of this. I mean, I just really enjoy those conversations.

Tony Middlebrooks  18:52  
So let me ask you were there. Were there any folks who, as you interviewed them, made some controversial assertions, things that kind of took you by surprise? How'd you react to that? I personally process it.

Scott Allen  19:08  
You know, I don't; I haven't found myself really in controversial situations. I mean, there's been guests with pretty strong opinions about certain leaders. And there's been there have been guests who feel strongly about certain things. And it was interesting; I actually had one listener say, "Hey, would you put a disclaimer on your show notes, just suggesting that these guests do not represent the truth?" So you might notice around the episode, I don't know, 128, there started to become a disclaimer because this person's assertion was, "look, all over the world, people might listen to your podcast and assume that some of these perspectives are truth." So that was interesting. Very interesting. You know, there have been a couple of people who I just love, you know, Snowden and Boon would be in this category. Henry Mintzberg Kathy Allen. They're just there. They're at 50,000 feet. And they see things in such beautiful, fascinating ways. And I'm not, I'm not there, I'm not very yet. It's a lot of fun to kind of exist in that space. And I jokingly say this sometimes, Tony, but this is a little secret for listeners; if you ever want to know if Scott really knows what's going on in the conversation, you'll know that I have no clue what's going on. If I say, Tell me more. The classic professor I'm talking to Elena from Western Ontario and Western University in Ontario. And she's, she's at 50,000 feet, and I'm swimming. But you know, Mintzberg, his whole episode was called "What's Dumbing Us Down?" And he's just thinking about things at such a macro level. And really, how our society is out of balance. And then you have, you have Kathy Allen. And she really is just such a wonderful thinker, that I really, really it was, I think it was episode number two. But she's challenging us, you know, do an audit of the theories that you're teaching, or the whole system frameworks in any theory imply that you can control the outcome as a theory, whose time has passed. I mean, it's I don't know. I mean, so I think, controversial. I mean, I'm sure some things have been said where certain factions of listeners didn't agree. And that's, I think, that's hope we can create that space for dialogue. But I think for me, it's this large systems-level I marry all been that that conversation around complexity. Willie Donaldson, around complexity, I still don't have a grasp of that whole area. I just don't

Tony Middlebrooks  21:52  
have you thought about changing up some of the formats so that maybe you did have a panel discussion or, you know, just an open conversation versus, you know, interviewing an expert, so to speak?

Scott Allen  22:03  
Yeah, I would totally be open to it. I think it's, you know, Barbara Kellerman sometimes nudges me and says, Okay, where's this going, Scott? And I have to say to ourselves, I don't have that clarity yet; I'm still kind of searching and trying to, I guess, in some ways, you know, Josh Lindblom, it was a wonderful conversation. And he said, you know, leaders sometimes are kind of two steps ahead in the fog. And that was a phrase he used that just really stood out in a nice way. But it's almost as if I'm still trying to kind of figure out the corners of the room and feel my way around the topic, and get into some saturation. So I feel like I have a lot more of that in me, but I I have thought Jonathan and I Jonathan reams, and I recorded an episode this morning. It'll be out in the next episode, where he kind of did an adult development one on one. And that was really cool to just hear I mean, I would love to hear Susan Komives. Talk about giving her a lecture. I mean, that would be really cool. Or Ron Riggio, or Bruce Avolio. To hear how they talk about transformational leadership. That would be so cool. And so there's these are Ira Chalef talking about how he does a one-hour talk on followership, that would be awesome. What's What's

Tony Middlebrooks  23:28  
the Greek word for essence? Maybe that's the new series.

Scott Allen  23:32  
Oh, you see, now you're taking me to like Greek again, I

Tony Middlebrooks  23:39  
feel that until, you know, we've maybe we actually expanded out from the Western canon get away from the Greek and Latin.

Scott Allen  23:48  
Well, yeah. Yeah. This takes us to Chellie Spiller. I mean, there's a quote that she said on the podcast was just really, that was one of those moments that just kind of, you know, she said, "I adamantly believe we cannot shoehorn indigenous leadership theory into western theories." I mean, there's just a whole other way of thinking that I don't know that we in the West have an appreciation for I don't mean that in a mean, spirited way. I just haven't been exposed to it. I don't; I don't. But I'm excited too. But again, that's a whole nother nook and cranny. I mean, I just told you, I know, not enough about adult development. I do not know enough about complexity theory. I do not know enough about Indigenous ways of knowing right? I think we got to stay curious here, Tony.

Tony Middlebrooks  24:43  
Do you? Do you have a couple of sleeper awards? So in your ongoing quest to expand your perspectives and your horizons and peek into these nooks and crannies of leadership, application, and such? Are there some episodes that you heard, and then They just kept rolling around in your head, and you just kept thinking about him and seeing him differently?

Scott Allen  25:05  
You know, I don't know that I, I don't know, I would use the phrase sleeper in that, you know. But there are, there are episodes that I keep coming back to in my mind. There are phrases that people have used, and maybe we can get their quotes; you had one of those quotes that just really framed how I see things now, just those moments that I was like, Oh my gosh, wow. But there are episodes. Again, Josh Lindblom MLB pitcher, has had a pitch come back at him. And I think it might have been in his sixth or seventh season, he didn't have a college degree. And literally has spent every season doing undergrad grad and now started a Ph.D. While he will play a game because he worked the second shift from three to 11 and go home and write a paper in the hotel room. I mean, it's just so, and he was just dropping little phrases throughout that episode that just really, really. And while we stay on the theme of baseball, you know, the Cleveland guardians baseball team, went through a name change, and unfortunately, they just lost to the Yankees recently.

Tony Middlebrooks  26:17  
Sorry about that.

Scott Allen  26:17  
But you know, that conversation with Brian Baron about kind of stepping into that space of engaging and changing the name, and he knew exactly what he was walking into. And you know what? He is just an incredible, incredible leader. And that was just such an interesting display of someone stepping into something that is better for the whole more sustainable, a long-term decision, but a decision that he knew would inflame certain factions of people but doing, I think, the right thing, and making a difference. And I think that was a powerful conversation. And going back to Shelley Spiller, you know, again, that quote that she used about not shoehorning indigenous leadership theory into western theories, the best they can do is kind of illuminate some aspects. Well, wow, that tells me there's a whole world there. And she was talking about how a river in New Zealand had been granted personhood and had the rights of a person. And so it's just a, I'm so excited to learn more about re culture and other Indigenous ways of knowing I've had a few folks on the podcast which helped me better understand some of that. And then there are other people that have been doing the work. So Beth Zemsky. And she has been an activist in the LGBTQ-plus community since the late 70s. And has just been engaged in that work. And Powerful, powerful stories, or Sarah Safari, who, for listeners, please listen to that episode with Sarah. I just got Sarah. And she's in Nepal; we're hopefully going to record something in the next couple of months because she, you know, she's had some new adventures. And there was a wonderful, powerful, horrific documentary that was just released on Netflix called Aftershock, which is a story about the 2015 avalanche that she speaks of in our episode. And this is now a visual representation of that. So wow, I mean, some of these people engaging in this work, and there's real danger there, Gil Hickman talking about how she wants to sit it on the stool at the diner because she can now and not telling her parents, but want to do that. I mean, just powerful stories, but anyone doing the work, right? I mean, those are kind of the stories that really stand out for me,

Tony Middlebrooks  28:54  
as you interviewed some of these practitioners, you know, clearly, you chose them for a reason because of their impact or because of some of the things that they may have said or approaches that they're taking that are interesting or unique. Did you find at certain points that they were finding illumination in the conversation, and they became a more reflective practitioner because of their presence on the podcast?

Scott Allen  29:19  
Well, I think for some of them, the mission is so front and center. That I don't know that they necessarily identify as, you know, quote, unquote, a leader. I mean, I think probably cognitively they do, but I don't, I don't know that they, they take on that identity. And so it's just, it's interesting, they, they're just passionate, and they want to make a difference. And they're willing to put in the time to make that difference.

Tony Middlebrooks  29:49  
You know that that that is a huge insight for leadership educators right there, right to say look, at the end of the day, after all these activities and all these theories and all These little wisdom drops, what's your passionate vision? What are you gonna go after what's going to drive you? And you'll find a way around the different obstacles; you'll find a way to bring in the maximum value of the individuals working with you and the communities working with you. That's really fascinating.

Scott Allen  30:19  
I was having this conversation with someone recently, it was in the middle of the pandemic, and my family was around the dining room table. And we were having dinner again. Because we had dinner every night and lunch and breakfast, but it just kind of came to me it was like, Look; we're all kind of place on this earth. And probably three things can you find your place? Can you find your people? And can you find your passion or your purpose, and some of us are not dropped in the best of spots? And we have to go on the search to find some of those three things. And I think, oftentimes, I don't know, I mean, it'd be really interesting to research is, is part of the challenge we have around anxiety and some of the challenges we have from a mental health standpoint because large factions of people don't feel like they're surrounded by people, a place or a purpose that helps them thrive and live into who they should be. So when you talk with these people, where there's just jet fuel, Sarah is willing to climb the seventh highest summits, the first Iranian to climb the seventh highest summits. And she doesn't identify as a climber. I hope she does now, but you know, she's kind of done it. But she's passionate about women's equality and helping Nepali girls live better life and become educated. That's her thing, and she weighs the dollar for every foot that she climbs to help support them.

Tony Middlebrooks  31:49  
Let's, let's drop some wisdom here. Okay, so you've been talking about how all these folks have been some practical wisdom, Tony, or some practical wisdom. Yeah. So okay, let's talk about some wisdom drops; we'll divide it up into some different segments here. And let's start with aspiring leaders.

Scott Allen  32:06  
Okay, what I say to aspiring leaders,?

Tony Middlebrooks  32:09  
to an aspiring leader, somebody who is, let's say, a high school or undergrad, or somebody newly moving into a leadership position?

Scott Allen  32:19  
So I would say read Jay Conger's book, The High Potentials Advantage. That would be one way of answering that question. I would also encourage them to systematize their learning. How are they staying in a continuous place of learning and development, and growth? Right? Yep. You're holding up High Potential's Advantage right now. I love it. I love it. fascinating conversation with him. But I think to systematize your learning and have that be one of the first things you read or listen to

Tony Middlebrooks  32:49  
highs you're learning. I love it. What about veteran leaders because we get a lot of folks who, you know, they hit a point in their career where they're ready for the next level.

Scott Allen  32:58  
Marshall Goldsmith, What Got you Here Won't Get You There. Are you staying in a place of learning and staying curious about some of the data that's coming back at you so that you can stay agile, stay nimble, and adapt to go to some Ron Heifetz there? Are you engaging in adaptive leadership? Or are you kind of stuck in your own predefined ways of being? That's what I would say to the veterans with confidence.

Tony Middlebrooks  33:24  
You do you realize you're gonna have about 800 links at the end of this podcast for people to go back and listen?

Scott Allen  33:30  
No. They're gonna have to dig!

Tony Middlebrooks  33:33  
about how about just general leadership practitioners. So not brand new, not veteran, just everyone in the middle, the middle management gang.

Scott Allen  33:42  
I said this a little bit earlier, my some of my favorite conversations Sara Safari; she's a woman with this intense passion. But she's a Ph.D. And I think that's a powerful combination. So for practitioners, spend some time with some scholars to learn some of that leadership theory; there's some cool stuff out there for you to engage with. And I think this podcast is a nice primer for some of that knowledge. And scholars, I think we need to spend more time with practitioners. I think we are too far from the work, I'm saying in quotes, the work, you know, imagine if physicians weren't actually in hospitals doing research, they were just kind of off to the side. I don't know if that would be as effective. And so I'm

Tony Middlebrooks  34:29  
I'm anticipating a collective, ahhh!

Scott Allen  34:34  
Well, I mean, it just makes no sense. And so I think as academics, we aren't embedded in the context enough, and we aren't close to the work some of the time, which I think personally, is where we create space for places like Gallup, KPMG, McKinsey to enter that space. They have PhDs; they have people doing research. They have to Know how to create a beautiful marketing piece. And they, in the minds of practitioners, become more relevant at times? Not always, but at times. And so, are we staying close to practitioners in the work?

Tony Middlebrooks  35:13  
That's, that's some great wisdom. So

Scott Allen  35:17  
was it practical wisdom, though, Tony? was it practical?

Tony Middlebrooks  35:19  
It is, but I'm gonna go Uber practical on you. So, you know, I'm new to Florida, and we just moved here three months ago. And I've had a pretty steady series of contractors to the house jobs. And I love to chat with these folks about what they do, where they're from, what they, you know, how they got into it. And I'm probably distracting and annoying them, but many of them belong to the Chamber of Commerce, or they belong to like guilds, I guess we'll call it for lack of a better term, where they, they help each other out with all sorts of not just referrals, but management challenges. And I wonder what kind of wisdom we can offer, basically, the small business owner, the small contractor, the individual who's not part of the corporate massive structure where they have their own built-in training systems and can pay, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars to bring in experts, or individuals who are so embedded in this field, like scholars and leadership educators, there's that's the critical mass of individuals who find themselves in a leadership position. Me not know it.

Scott Allen  36:32  
Yeah. I may not identify as a leader may not identify as Yeah. So is the question there? What would I recommend to them?

Tony Middlebrooks  36:42  
Yeah, a little wisdom drop for that group. Or maybe we're not there yet? 

Scott Allen  36:47  
Well, no, I think, you know, my grandfather was an electrician in Iowa at Hormel. And he didn't have a high school education but spent his whole life working at Hormel and making a good living, and voraciously read time and Popular Mechanics. And we would walk around their house, and there would be those types of magazines. And he was voracious about his learning. He was curious. So again, whether it's a podcast, or whether it's audiobooks that you can listen to in the truck, or as you're doing your work. There are so many opportunities, and so much learning has been democratized. The challenges it's almost overwhelming, the amount that's out there. So, where do I begin? But if you begin with things like with individuals like Adam Grant, or some other folks of that nature, you mentioned, Dan Pink, there's some interesting folks who I think are doing a nice job of translating, as you said, and dropping really important nuggets, whether you like to read or listen, short form, long form, there's just a lot out there that I think is accessible.

Tony Middlebrooks  38:01  
So I know we're coming up on time here. So let me ask you two last questions. What's Trending? What's the next thing in the world of leadership that's going to help practitioners, health educators, and health researchers, given what you've talked to individuals about?

Scott Allen  38:19  
I think one; I don't know that this is trending. Tony, I feel like I'm not answering any things that have your phrasing. And maybe I'm a politician. Right now. I'm just kind of turning around and answering the question I want to answer. I don't know that this is trending; I think it should be a trend. And there's an article by Leroy in the Journal of leadership and organizational studies recently called walking our evidence-based talk, the case of leadership development in business schools, and it's by Leroy and a whole bunch of other authors. But it's a reality; it's a little bit of taking to task. If you look at the top 25 colleges of business, you can see leadership; it's more of a marketing kind of term than it is a true commitment to developing leaders at times. Not always, but at times, 

Tony Middlebrooks  39:08  
Not at Florida, 

Scott Allen  39:09  
Not at Florida, but at other schools, right? But again, I mean, it's like having, we create pilots, and then having one class on piloting. Right. Right. And so I don't know, it's just interesting. I mean, I get that people could be defining what makes a leader in different ways and all of that, but I really do think, how are we justifying the billions of dollars that are being been being spent in corporations in higher education? And are we really, truly working to build initiatives that are evidence-based and that are gathering data to help us learn? And that's hard work. I mean, that's longitudinal studies. That's really, really intentional design from an adult learning perspective; that's mixed methods. It's quantity If it's qualitative, are we upping our game when it comes to our talk? Right? That should be a trend. That should be a trend. And I'll make sure that there's a link to that article, or at least the location of that article in the show notes. Because I think it's important, I really do. And we're doing a little bit of that in the collegiate leadership competition; we're dipping our toes; it's not enough. But who's really going to break through? And does it start doing some really cool work that really starts to, in a robust way, show growth, show development, right? In from a few different lenses, right? Not only cognitive but skill-based, humanistic

Tony Middlebrooks  40:47  
one at the individual level and the organizational level, team level. Interesting. So last question is this. What's next for Scott Allen? podcaster, extraordinaire, 150 episodes,

Scott Allen  41:04  
a phone call with the student at? We gotta get off in Florida,

Tony Middlebrooks  41:10  
ladies and gentlemen, the exciting life of Scott Allen's leadership magic.

Scott Allen  41:16  
That is what's now I have three minutes. No, I mean, I think I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna keep on keeping on. Obviously, with everything opening up, it's a little bit more difficult to prioritize the four hours probably a week that it takes to record and produce show notes transcript, I mean, I put it in a system, and it gives me a transcript. But it's, you know, that's a half-hour project in and of itself, just to get it to a B. So no, no, it's been a lot of fun. And you know, Tony, again, like some things that people have said, I've just, it's been so much fun. It really has, and we didn't get to it. Maybe we'll do that for episode 300. But there's just these nuggets whether Chip Souba, who said, Look, "this is a mountain without a top." This was the personal development domain. Are you saying? I don't know better. I know different when you're talking about how you enter the space with your students just love that. Or Sean Hannah saying, Look, "Ethics is a team sport." Oof. Wow. That's just such cool. Or Doug Lindsey...he shared with me the Bob Hogan quote, "Who you are as how you lead." There was a session the other day I was in at an organization in my community. And I gave that quote, and someone looked back at me and said, We could also say, "how you lead is who you are". I kind of went into this time warp. I was like, Oh, I don't know if that's different. Or the same thing. I'm trying to figure this out. Robert Livingston, one final quote. I mean, it was just this one just, we were talking about. We were talking about his book called The Conversation. And it's really in many ways about how we discuss important critical issues, especially around racism and such. And he said, You know, "when it comes to performing mental gymnastics, most of us are Olympic athletes." And wow, how true is that? Right? Wow. Yeah. How true is that? I mean, so it's just

Tony Middlebrooks  43:25  
our natural capacity to take what we experience in the world and fit it into the way we see the world. Yep. I mean, we're we are Olympic athletes that that. Yep. Which leads to all the biases that get us in trouble. Yep.

Scott Allen  43:41  
Well, Tony, I hope I hope this has given you something of what you were looking for.

Tony Middlebrooks  43:45  
I'm sure this gave the listeners lots of interesting directions to think about. And, you know, honestly, you have done a lot of hard work for all of us. You've done all the hours of listening and transcribing, and posting so that we could benefit. And we could take this and the field further and make a difference. So thank you, sir. 150. Congratulations. Thank you. I'll see you at 300 want to do it again. The check is in the mail.

Scott Allen  44:17  
Okay, my friend, it's 259. All right, going. Take care. It's good talking to you. There is not a ton more to add to that episode. I guess. Maybe a heartfelt thank you that you have made it this far and that you have joined me on this journey of having conversations with very, very interesting people from all over the world. And another heartfelt thank you to Tony, as I mentioned, just a great friend, a mentor, and a co-author. We have a textbook coming out two-second edition of a textbook coming out with some colleagues, Mindy McNutt and Jim Morrison, in February 2023; I think that's the date, so Thank you, Tony, so much for taking the time to have that conversation and staying curious. I looked it up, eager to know or learn something. And something I know about you is that you are that. And thank you for staying curious. Thanks for checking in. As always, thanks for listening. And thanks for being a part of this process of better understanding this phenomenon we call leadership. It's something so much fun to be curious about because it's all around us, and it has such a major impact on our world. And if we can better understand it and if we can better understand how to help people be more effective when serving in these sometimes gnarly, challenging roles. Maybe we can help the world be a better place. Thanks, everyone. Take care and be well. See you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai