Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Robbie Crabtree - The Story is the Strategy

November 16, 2022 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 149
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Robbie Crabtree - The Story is the Strategy
Show Notes Transcript

Robbie Crabtree spent the first eight years of his career as a trial lawyer. He tried 102 jury trials. This experience helped him take what he learned to coach the national mock trial team at SMU Law School. 

But he wanted to share what he was learning with others.

So he founded Performative Speaking to share what he had learned as a trial lawyer for founders and entrepreneurs in the startup and technology world. Over the past few years, he’s worked with hundreds of founders, helped clients raise millions of dollars, and run his course for more than 300 people.

He believes that you have a story inside of you. It’s one worth sharing, and it can change the world.

Connecting with Robbie Crabtree


Quotes About Storytelling

  • "The story is the strategy." - Ben Horowitz
  • "The storyteller is the most important person in the world." - Steve Jobs


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.


Connect with Scott Allen

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  
Today I have Robbie Crabtree, he spent the first eight years of his career as a trial lawyer. He tried 102 jury trials and robberies, murders, child abuse cases. His experience doing this work helped him take what he learned. And he coached the national mock trial team at SMU law school. But he wanted to share what he had learned there with others. So he founded performative speaking as a way to share what he had learned as a trial lawyer for founders and entrepreneurs in the startup and tech world. Over the past 18 months, he's worked with hundreds of founders helped clients raise 10s of millions of dollars, and run his course, for over 135 people. Robbie believes that you have a story inside of you. It's one worth sharing, and it's one that can change the world. So, Robbie, I'm going to go a couple of different directions than you right now, as we startup, but you're in Texas, we had this magical three days in West Texas this summer. I wasn't I had this perception of West Texas that was very different than what it was. But the mountains and we were in Alpine and Marfa. And then we had a couple of days just outside of Austin in Dripping Springs. And I don't think you're too far from there. Are you?

Robbie Crabtree  1:18  
So I know Dripping Springs quite well because it's actually growing up. I played baseball I played through college - actually, the team that I played on in high school was based we had half our team was based out of Dripping Springs and half the team was based out of Houston. And so I ended up spending a lot of time actually in Dripping Springs before it really became Dripping Springs and now it's just blown up in this huge place. But yeah, it's really fun out there. And then Marfa is a huge kind of hipster community that's really blown up and influencers. So yeah, it's a good spot.

Scott Allen  1:50  
Yeah, it's just amazing. And then we did the Guadalupe Mountains National Park. And that was a lot of fun. And so we'd spent some time in New Mexico, but love that part of the country. And, and I'm so excited to have a conversation with you, you know, I was introduced to you, because of a gentleman named Ari Lewis, who's now in LA, blowing up with Payload, doing incredible things on Twitter. But you do incredible things on Twitter. I mean, I think you spent as I watched from afar, you know, you spent kind of the last 20 months really amassing a following. And it's just incredible. I love your frequent updates, your posts, your thoughts. Talk a little bit about that adventure real quick.

Robbie Crabtree  2:32  
I will say I love his approach to growth anytime something space-related is mentioned, he would plug his newsletter. And oftentimes it was Elon talking about SpaceX. And it was just like, constantly, every time you see Elon tweet about space, you knew Ari was gonna swoop in and say, If you like this, you should sign up for our newsletter. It was just relentless. It's beautiful. I was going from a world in the legal space that was relatively unknown. In the tech startup world, I don't come from an engineering degree, I don't come from a big fan company. Like I don't have those credentials that a lot of them are familiar looking at. But I really think that it's powerful and beautiful to bring these ideas and things that are working from other industries and essentially move into something different and say, Hey, I've learned all this in this industry that you know nothing about, and it applies directly to what you care about. And so really, I was thinking to myself, "how do I demonstrate that expertise and that credibility in a new space?" And Twitter is where everybody in the tech world lives. So I said, let's start talking about it. Like there's no better way than just putting content out there, like showing the way that I think, showing the way that I approach this. And by doing that, you just started to get people who resonate, right? Early on, it was like that. I was like, the public speaking guy and the trial lawyer guy. And it moves into well, now people know me for public speaking, I can start moving into more like strategy. And then I can move more into storytelling and how that affects founders when they're fundraising, leading teams, and how I've been able to help people do that. And then it leads into like, a lot more strategic storytelling, communication is what I really call it. But it's like this journey, you have to kind of build credibility piece by piece by piece by showing kind of like your, your thinking, and the journey. So people when they get there, it's that famous Steve Jobs quote, right? You can only connect the dots when you look backward. You have to just trust whether it's you believe in karma, destiny or God, or whatever it is the universe that will provide if you do the right things moving forward. And that's really kind of what has happened is as I look back, I'm like, everything makes sense to me. At the time, I was just taking the best guess that I had, and it happened to work.

Scott Allen  4:48  
Yeah. Well, I think that quote from jobs is from that Stanford graduation speech, but I absolutely love that talk. I've used that in class actually. I love what you said about moving from a space like law, a trial attorney into this new realm. There's an awesome book, if you haven't heard of it, or read it. It's called range. But it's by Epstein. And essentially, basically what he says I think the subtitle of the book is how generalists thrive in a specialized world because he's talking about exactly kind of what you're communicating here that look, oftentimes people from, you know, speaking of Elon, not necessarily the heart of the auto industry or the space industry. But these people from the margins who walk in and view that space from a totally different direction can just transform, they can transform the industry, and they can transform the thinking in that space. And I think you're doing exactly that. Right. I mean, you're bringing in the knowledge that is brand new, to maybe some of the folks who've been in this space, you know, the communications or rhetoric professors, right?

Robbie Crabtree  5:57  
I mean, like, I'm bringing, like Aristotle, the art of rhetoric, and I'm bringing in Robert Cialdini's persuasion principle. I'm bringing in Ogilvy's advertising principles. I'm bringing Pixar Storytelling principles. I'm bringing in like MLK and JFK, what they do well, and Amanda Gorman and slam poetry and rapping from Eminem. And like my life, speaking to people and convincing them to, you know, do really serious things when somebody had been hurt or killed in a courtroom and saying, Hey, all this stuff that I learned that I had to be really, really good at, in order to succeed applies to what you're doing, you just don't realize it yet. And like, we can essentially unlock this whole new world. And we're seeing it in the tech space right now in the startup world, even in you know, major businesses are just storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. You know, there are so many essential quotes you could pull out like, I love the one by Ben Horowitz, it says "the story is the strategy." Steve Jobs says "the storyteller is the most important person in the world" we're getting to this moment where people are realizing it. But now they need people who can essentially be that guide. If we think of the hero's journey, right? Now, they're the hero, somebody has to be the guide. And that means you need to actually understand what to teach them

Scott Allen  7:04  
well, and the whole, the whole notion around the story, I couldn't agree more. I was just reading a book, really. And it's a book about deep learning. So it's how people really truly learn at a very deep level, essentially, the author in this book was talking about the importance of art and aesthetics as a way that we learn. And so storytelling, since the beginning of time, has been fundamental to how we learn. But it's not something we teach. It's not a skill we necessarily develop in high school. So talk about some of the principles that you're sharing with some of these founders, some of these individuals who are trying to craft that work. What are some themes you see, as you coach people to get better at doing that work?

Robbie Crabtree  7:48  
You know, I think, sadly, you, you call it out is like the 1900s, they stopped teaching rhetoric. And they stopped teaching oratory for the rest of history that had been a skill that has been taught because it's so important. But they came to this conclusion that because all of it was in books, now, they didn't need to teach that people would just learn it and study it on their own. Yeah. Now, I also have my own belief that it was partly done because the places that did still teach it were at elite institutions. And if you're an elite institution, and you understand how to communicate, and persuade people, you have an advantage compared to everybody else. Yes. And so I think it was done on purpose as well to basically take control and the ability to persuade more people. But that being said, we need other individuals to really understand what this skill is about. And when it comes down to it. So many people first off, just have a really poor mindset, and they don't have a story worth sharing. Yeah. And I haven't you read that kind of opening piece about me, like, I believe that every person has a story inside of them. And it's a story worth sharing because it will move somebody. So it's first to like how do we get them to embrace this mindset that no matter where you are in life, no matter how boring you think your life is, no matter how unsuccessful you think you are, or you know how successful you have been on the opposite end that nobody will want to hear it because it will feel like bragging, you have a story that people do want to hear. So that's the first piece the second piece is when people deliver stories, they focus on so much context and so much of the boring stuff. Instead of just thinking like the easiest way I can say this is to think about your favorite movies, television shows, and things of that nature. Think of Star Wars, for instance, they drop you in episode four. First off, they start you in episode four, they drop you immediately into Darth Vader boarding the ship. If you don't think that captures someone's attention. You're crazy. It's the same reason why I'm in Breaking Bad. They start with this moment where like, you know, Walter White's driving the van with bodies in the back. whitey tighties on he pulls out a gun. It looks like things are gonna go really bad for him and then they go three weeks earlier. Yeah, and lead up to that. Because if you don't catch that attention If you deliver too much context, people tune out. So so much of it just comes down to understanding how to drop somebody in the action. Think of a cold open, whether it's like something like the office, or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, they're great at just dropping people into it that cold open. And that's really what a story is. Because you want somebody leaning in and being like, "Hold on, I've got to figure out what's going on here. Because this is...I'm really lost!" That's what we want.

Scott Allen  10:21  
Totally. I was just thinking of I was thinking of as you were speaking, we've been watching something. Uh, oh, it's AP Bio is the name of the television show. But they do that beautifully. They just kind of have some they drop you in, there's some kind of situation and then boom, it starts or be 99 Does that Brooklyn 99 does that really nicely as well? Where they kind of at least bring you into the episode and really kind of take you on a journey and capture your attention? What else? What are the things are you thinking? So it's the mindset, I also imagine you're experiencing this, you have kind of like a double mindset challenge, that I have a story and be that I can deliver that story in a compelling way, right? Because there are those people also that don't have the confidence. And that's a mindset shift when you're taking someone from, I'm not a really good presenter, a good speaker to I can do this, I can be successful at this. That's a cool shift to see, isn't it?

Robbie Crabtree  11:15  
It is amazing to watch the eyes light up when that happens. Yeah, I remember when I was starting this work. And really, I would say I started this work when I was coaching the national mock trial team. And I didn't really know if it was gonna work. Like I knew I knew how to do this stuff I could do in a courtroom, my results, spoke for themselves. And I was like, Can I actually teach somebody this thing? And I remember the way that I teach is very much the Socratic method, I don't give you the answers, I really try to encourage you, the person to figure it out. Now I'm going to give you all the guidance you need, I'm going to let you understand why you're making the decisions you are but you've got to figure it out. Because essentially, what happened is at the end of that first semester, it was about a week out from the competition. And I got a text message from one of the students saying I hated you this entire semester. They kept I kept asking you for answers. I kept asking for your help for you to tell me what to do. It drove me crazy because you never would say, but I get it now. Yeah. They said we were a week out and it all clicked. And now I know that I can figure it out no matter what happens in the competition, and that I can adapt on the fly because I get how to do this thing. And it was like this realization and then inevitably coaching every semester, I'd had that same experience where my students, but by then I was confident I was like, it's gonna work. I think the hard part about being a coach or teacher in that world is saying, like, I know what I'm doing, you have to trust me. Yeah, and especially when I'm dealing with some of these people who are running, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in value companies, like us have to listen to me just trust me, I know what I'm doing. Like that's, that's a big ask for them to say, hey, just hang on. And so what we focus on there is one, we've got to make sure the structure is correct. We've got to think in those like psychological terms, how do we create hooks? How do we make it emotional? How do we create tension drama really elevate all those pieces? Again, this is why a lot of times I'll use so many other references, music, art, and television movies because we can study those and use those like, why are they effective when we watch them, and we listen to them when we see them? Yep, use that in your storytelling. And then the second piece of this is what I like to call musicality. And I've talked to a number of classically trained musicians who are playing in symphonies across the world around this idea, because I'm like, I think there's something here. And they're like, we study this too. And we can see that speakers who are the most dynamic in their ranges are the ones that have the like, most well-known speeches are the ones that people resonate the most with. And so it's really, these two pieces, get the structure, right, understand how to build out all those elements, and then create this musicality, because that musicality is what makes it sticky in the brain for somebody because it triggers that creative side, just like if I ask you to sing back your like a theme song, or some song that you grew up on. For instance, if you asked me to sing, like, I know, Barbie girl from 1997, like the back of my hand, no matter when it comes on, I can sing it. Like why is that? Like, I can't remember a lot of speeches, but I can remember Barbie Girl - because it's a catchy tune, like it's stuck in my mind. And so that's what we want to do were speaking to is make it sticky.

Scott Allen  14:18  
I'm thinking right now of this moment because you just said that reallynice. And I know that you have experienced this also. But there's this really cool moment when coaching, where you have a person who doesn't necessarily believe in their own mind that they can do it. But you see a glimmer of it. You see a glimmer of 10 seconds of it. 15 seconds of it. And it's like, okay, it's there. It's in you. I saw it. We just got to pull that out. And we got to stretch that for another three or four minutes or five minutes to your point that musicality, that delivery. That motion, that drama, that hook, and really, really engaging. And it's just it's the coolest moment when We see that spark, you name it. And then it's just about saying, Okay, it's in there. Let's, let's, let's build on that, let's, let's extend that for 10 minutes, whatever it is, right? Because I'm sure, you come up with some of these founders who are technically brilliant. But when it comes to delivering that story, I mean, just like anything else, it takes a little bit of work.

Robbie Crabtree  15:22  
I mean, just like so many people presenting doing anything, there's like reading, they're reading their PowerPoint, they're reading the bullet points. They're reading their resume. And I'm like, I mean, I can't tell you how many people I've worked with who get up on a stage. And the first way they start is they tell me the resume? Well, like, I'll be watching. They're like, Hey, Rob, what do you think of this? Like, you just read your resume for the first minute why that's bad. That's, that's your biggest opportunity to grab their attention. And you started by saying, like, here's where I've worked. Here's where I've worked. Here's where I've worked. We've missed the problem is, and again, this isn't like that they are making a mistake. Because they're dumb. They're making a mistake because no one has taught them the right way. And again, it goes back to this idea. We aren't teaching people this art of rhetoric triangle when it goes to ethos, logos, and pathos. Right. And what happens is, we as people want to think we are logical and reasonable beings. We want to think that and especially technical people, especially technical founders, yeah, so like, computer code works this way. So everything should work this way. Yes. The problem is humans don't, nope. Humans run on emotion. Yes, we use logic and reason to justify the decision that was based on emotion.

Scott Allen  16:36  
Well, we do mental gymnastics to try and use logic to justify why we follow.

Robbie Crabtree  16:46  
And if you don't hit it, so like, if you don't understand that, that's the thing that actually matters. Yeah, you're going to get left behind. And really, that's what it comes down to. So many of these technical founders, these brilliant individuals, just don't understand because, in their minds, it makes sense. But again, this is that mindset shift you have to do when you're speaking, when you're presenting, when you're trying to basically sell that's really what life comes down to is we're selling our ideas, our vision, our product or service, whatever it is, is thinking, What does my audience need to hear? Not Oh, not what makes sense to me, not what makes sense in my brain? Because you don't have any of them in like, you don't have all of my experience. You don't have my perspective; you don't have my lens on the world. Oh, gosh, yeah. So I speak to you in a way that makes sense to me. Guess who the only person is that's going to resonate with the message? Me? That's the problem.

Scott Allen  17:42  
Well, an adjacent comment to this is I think it's Tony Robbins, who said something like this, but it's it goes, the quote says something to the effect of people who are overly nervous about presenting or only thinking about themselves, right? And I think we get so in our own heads about our ideas and our thoughts and how I'm feeling, and I got to put everything on the slide. So I don't forget, when again, to your point, empathizing and designing for that, that viewer, that first-time viewer, it's a totally different exercise, a totally different exercise. And nine times out of 10, I can be working with it may be a surgeon, it might be an architect, nine times out of 10, we can cut at least half of what was on that slide. And at least let them breathe and shine a little bit differently than what they were about to put into motion. Because I'm sure, you've seen people start putting some pretty horrendous things into motion where literally, they can't be good. You can't navigate this slide right here. Well, you know, you're dead. You're DOA.

Robbie Crabtree  18:48  
And slides are such an interesting thing when it comes to storytelling and presenting... because so many people make the mistake of just slamming as much information on the side as possible. The truth is if you want somebody to be paying attention to what you're saying, You need very little information on that side. Typically, when you go beyond ten words on the side, the listener cannot focus on you and the side, and they're going to go back to the side more often than not; this is why images and even memes have become very popular on sides because they're an easy way to translate an idea and make it sticky but not take away from the attention of the speaker. So one we want to always be thinking about how do we make sure that the slide isn't the star of the show? Because this slide really is a way to help, you know, anchor your points not to take away from your points. And then, what story are we telling this is where titles and headlines matter so much. I think they're oftentimes these throwaway moments where somebody just puts the most generic title up. If anytime I look at a slide deck, I'm looking at it, even looking at the content on the site; I'm just I'm looking at the headlines. Do the headlines, do the titles of each site, tell me a story. Do I understand the narrative arc as we're going through it? And then, if you essentially if you can create a narrative arc with your titles, you should need anything else on your sites. Now you can put stuff, but I'm saying you shouldn't need anything else. Because of that narrative arc, that reminder should tell you everything you need to know to present in a compelling way.

Scott Allen  20:24  
I love it. Because you're right. And I've never thought of it in that way. But you're exactly right that the titles should provide that arc and should provide the 30,000-foot narrative of the story you're telling, and if it doesn't, or if it's completely boring, that's data, right?

Robbie Crabtree  20:43  
And data can tell a story. This is one of those, you know, misconceptions. In fact, Nancy Duarte does a great job of storytelling with data like that; you know, she's fantastic. And I think there's so much to learn from people who are doing this really well. And she also loves visuals. So super smart in the way she sets up presentations. I think that if we can change the conversation from thinking about what am I going to put on the side to what is my narrative in this slide deck and focus on those headlines in a way that when you read it, if you gave it to any person, they'd be like, I understand what you're trying to get across here. Yeah, I don't know. Exactly. But I understand what you're trying like, I understand the main idea, I get that there's something here. Yep. And so many people, when I come into them, I see their sides. And it's like the problem, our team, the solution. When we're going to the future. I'm like, What is it like that doesn't tell me a single thing about your story that tells me that is literally what every startup needs to be able to say. So like, what is your thing? What's your product? Why do you win? Why do I care? There was a fascinating stat; new data came out doc Sen, which tracks every investor pitch deck that goes out, will actually track how much time investors give on a pitch deck; they compile it. And two weeks ago, they released their report. And it was the average time spent on a founders deck was two minutes and 32 seconds. Oh, wow. That was the average time, which means most people are getting less than that. And even if it's two minutes and 30 seconds, you better find a way to capture their attention, you have better find a way to hook them and get that emotional kind of pull on them. Where they say I need to talk to this person, I need to get a meeting with them. Otherwise, like if you'd have a bland the problem, the solution, our team where we're going the future, the market, that doesn't tell me a story that tells me you're one of 10,000 You know, I can find another 10,000? I'm not worried about you because I can just put you aside, that's the problem, and you get lost in the shuffle.

Scott Allen  22:43  
Robbie, have you ever explored the Von Restorff effect? I have not. Okay. So it's what you just said. Banksy puts together a piece of artwork; a person buys it, it shreds it makes the news because it's totally off the wall totally. And he has made a career. Or I guess we don't know totally who Banksy is. They've made a career off of doing something that's that sets themselves apart from the norm. That's what catches our eye. So marketers and psychologists have been studying this for years; what can we do that will separate us and grab the attention of the viewer in a different way than just the normal? The sitcom starts with the same old, same old, same old approach? How do we do it differently? And it's a really cool concept. If you get a chance to look it up, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But it's a lot of fun because I'm constantly thinking about that. But you basically just said the concept, right? What how am I going to stand out? What's unique about me? And why is this different? And again, to your point, economists found out a long time ago, and you as an attorney know this very, very well, that humans don't make decisions solely based on logic, even sometimes even a little bit based on logic. It's emotion, and that's what drives and so if that story in that arc. And those images, I think Duarte Yeah, they call it the billboard, the billboard effect to the billboard test, you know, Can I check-in and look at it really quickly, because that's all a billboard is it's a big meme, right? It's, it's telling me a message. And then all of a sudden, you know, I feel like I need to go buy a mailer light or something, whatever it is. I love how you're thinking, sir. I love what, what are some other you'd mentioned Duarte. What are some other resources that you turn to that you find really, really valuable, Robbie?

Robbie Crabtree  24:38  
I mean, I named a couple of them. I think Pixar Storytelling is just genius. I think there's so much to learn from that. I think. Obviously, Cialdini is a classic when it comes to persuasion if you don't understand that stuff. I mean, good luck when I study a lot of less traditional sources like movies, television, and different things like that. And I build these into what I call an inspiration list. Because anytime something really hits me where I feel it. Yeah, I'm like, great. Let's pull that in. Because, at some point, I'm going to need to recreate that. And now I have this list. I can just scan and be like, I remember that triggered me feeling this way. I want my audience to feel like that. How did this show do to me? How did a scene in Peaky Blinders do this to me, right, I'm going to pull that out and figure out that I actually used this in the very last trial I ever try was a murder case that I was defending? Because I thought it was self-defense. And I remember I found this scene from the West Wing. It was season one, episode eight, I believe, take the Sabbath day. And it's about capital punishment. But it's a conversation between Toby Ziegler, who is the communications director at the White House in the show, and a rabbi, and they're talking about vengeance is not Jewish. And it's the way that they're speaking about it in the tone. There's this very melancholy music being played; the lighting is super dark, and the conversation is soft and intimate with big pauses. And I remember, like, every time I'd watch, I get chills, and just like feel this moment of, maybe it's not right. And so what I did for this closing argument, when this guy was facing, you know, 25 years to life in prison for something I really thought that he should be going home for, I essentially turn that vengeance is not Jewish into vengeance is not justice as my theme. And then I built around that. But the way I delivered it was all based on these, like, these moments, I was very soft, very quiet, very intimate. I tried to recreate every piece of that sort of scene that I could through my words and through my delivery mechanisms. And as a result, that jury ended up coming back with a not-guilty verdict eight hours later. And so he did in fact, go home. But without that inspiration, I would have never been able to do so. So I think this is one of those pieces that I like to tell people consumption has this negative connotation around it right now. And I think that is totally wrong. What makes it a positive is when is intentional consumption. And I think there is something to be learned from virtually everything that we consume. Yeah. From reality shows to animals, to West Wing, to books, we read autobiographies to fiction. I mean, some of my favorite books around storytelling are fiction; it's Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield. And it is The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien. They're just masterful at the way they structure it and the way they talk about emotional truth. You can learn more from Dune is another great example. The movie just came out the book is unbelievable when it comes to storytelling and world-building. So I tell people is find the things that resonate with you that make you feel that bring it to life and figure out why. Because the moment we can get more in touch with the emotions inside of us, the more we can translate those and recreate those to our audience externally.

Scott Allen  27:37  
I think it's so brilliant. So brilliant. Because literally, to your point, there's, there's the curriculum is all around us. And if we're looking for it, and if we're paying attention to our own emotional state, you know, why is it that I'm crying when Forrest is at Jenny's grave? Well, the music starts with the two wide shots of him looking at her grave. And all of a sudden, all of this is working in concert to make me feel a certain way. But that's deliberate on the part of the director, that's deliberate on the part of the author, that's deliberate on the part of the musician. Because again, to your point, if your eyes are open, and you're in tune with that, and it can go the opposite way, why am I so incredibly checked out right now? Why am I so bored? And totally not? I'm trying right now? Robbie, I've gone back four times to try and watch this show invasion on Apple. I can't, I can't get myself to. And so, but that emotion is important because I need to understand why I feel that way. Right? Because there are clues there.

Robbie Crabtree  28:58  
Now, if we want to talk about like very traditional, you can read things like you know, Building a Story Brand is a great way of thinking about storytelling story worthy by Matthew Dix is another good source to go and read. You can watch the great speeches by MLK and JFK and Amanda Gorman; you can watch Brene Brown's talk On vulnerability, you can go and get all these pieces you can study. Comedians, honestly, study Dave Chappelle, Trevor Noah; study these people that are really great storytellers. And most comedians don't get the credit that they deserve. Oh, yeah. What they actually are, are great storytellers that are able to make you laugh at the same time. Now, I'm not talking about slapstick humor I'm talking about the ones that I really think are the elite comedians who are the ones who are storytellers that are using it to make you think deeply about issues but also are able to make it laugh. So it feels safe to have the conversation. And that's really beautiful and powerful. So again, you can study from pretty much anywhere. And that's kind of the fun part of all this stuff.

Scott Allen  30:42  
Well, Robbie, you just made me think of what I just finished. Amy Schumer has a documentary on HBO Max, I believe right now. But it's about her being pregnant. But she's basically the documentary is about her building up to this show that she's doing while she's pregnant. But it really goes behind the scenes as to how a joke evolves over time, how it's shifted, where it's placed, and the intentionality that goes into all of that. So by the time I'm filming my special, I've elongated the set, I know what works. And I basically walk into the place, and the design exists, the pie has been baked, it's ready to go. But it's really cool to see that process. It just is.

Robbie Crabtree  31:28  
Kevin Hart talks about this too. He says that it will oftentimes take him a year and a half to be ready for a live tour because he's practicing so long. And the most interesting piece isn't that it takes a long time, because I understand that. But the most interesting piece he was talking about is he'll be testing them. His jokes in his sets, at smaller venues, write just to see how it's going. And he'll get laughs. But he said, What I'm actually listening for is what kind of laugh Is it? Oh, he's going deeper because he's, like, it should be a certain type of laugh. And if I don't hear that type of laugh, I scrap it, and we restart, as I go back to the beginning because I know that something's not right. And having that level, like I love Eminem to his process. I mean, that man, he literally studied the dictionary. So he knew every word possible to be able to rhyme. And then if you've ever seen the 60-minute interview, he just has legal notepads everywhere with rhymes and verses and things written all over them. Yeah. And this is a great reminder that all this stuff is learnable. But it also is challenging, like you have to put in the time. So like, it's learnable. But it's not overnight. Can we take somebody and turn them into a much better presenter into a great storyteller in two, or three months? If they have like that, that kind of core ability at their heart? Sure, I can get them too great to get somebody to elite to really world-class where you are just captivating. Any audience you walk into. That takes a long time. I mean, I've been doing this being a trial lawyer is competitive storytelling. Yeah, I've been honing this since I was in law school on the national mock trial team myself, and that was back in 2011, when I started that journey, so like, you know, we're 10-plus years into this with no signs of stopping. And that's the fun part. Like I continue to get better. I continue to learn, and the truth is, I learned from other people; this is a never-ending process for me to learn. And listen, as I said, Nancy Duarte, she's incredible, like I learned from, from people like that all the time, because there are titans of the industry who do this really well. And I just want to be able to build on top of what they've already been able to achieve and bring a new perspective to hopefully reach more people.

Scott Allen  33:40  
And you are, you are? Robbie, how can people get in touch with you to learn more about your work? Because again, I think about how you've chosen to embrace social media and build a presence in that space. I think that's one version of how you're carving out your own niche in a really, really nice way. So  how can people get in touch with your work?

Robbie Crabtree  34:06  
So on Twitter, my handle is @RobbieCrab,  then on both LinkedIn and Instagram, it's at "therobbiecrab." Those are the easiest ways to get in contact with me. You can always find my website is www.robbiecrab.com, so you can read the writing and then any email that somebody wants, and it's just https://www.robbiecrabtree.com. So pretty easy. Like all my DMs are open, I talk to people, and I can't always help everybody because sometimes it gets flooded. But I am I do like to try to help, and there's plenty of I write a lot. I create a lot of content, lots of free resources, video content, and things along those lines. So I'm always happy to point people in the right direction to help them as much as I can. Because I mean, there's just the world needs so much help on this and I want to see people who are better communicators and better storytellers. In the end, that makes my life a whole lot more fun too, because I love listening to great storytellers. I love, being immersed in different worlds. And the only way we do that is if people can take me there.

Scott Allen  35:11  
I agree. Okay, well, I'm thinking of it. First, thank you for your good work. Second, let's continue the dialogue. I'd love to down the road record an episode with you where we just talk about ten seemingly disparate sources that helped inform our work. I think that could be a really fun conversation. I love the Walter White references. And even your storytelling reminded me of the writing of Jon Krakauer Into Thin Air where he kind of drops you into a setting, shits hitting the fan, and oh, my gosh, and then we go back, and we start talking about, okay, how did we get there? So, I think the curriculum of life, so to speak, if we have a certain lens we can learn in really any direction.

Robbie Crabtree  35:55  
That's the fun part. It doesn't have to be boring. Just studying textbooks. It's like, oh, do you the things you enjoy, and then just use those to inform your ability to create and be more interesting and more persuasive and compelling as a speaker? That's kind of the fun part I get to basically do the dual purpose for everything I get to enjoy. It's entertaining me; then I get to use it on the flip side for business purposes.

Scott Allen  36:18  
Yep. which then makes you relevant and your examples relevant and contemporary. And I love it. Okay, sir. Thank you so much for stopping by today. I appreciate it.

Robbie Crabtree  36:28  
Thanks, Scott. This was fantastic. Okay, be Well,

Scott Allen  36:30  
cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai