Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen

Sharna Fabiano, Lacey Grey Hunter, & Lori Throupe - The Global Followership Conference

October 18, 2022 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 145
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders with Scott Allen
Sharna Fabiano, Lacey Grey Hunter, & Lori Throupe - The Global Followership Conference
Show Notes Transcript

Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and a member of the Strategic Planning Committee for the Conference.

Lacey Grey Hunter is the Director of the President's Leadership Program at Christopher Newport University and Co-Chair of the upcoming 2023 Global Followership Conference.

Lori Throupe is an Instructor of Leadership Studies & Faculty Director of Academic Success at Christopher Newport University, and Co-Chair of the 2023 Global Followership Conference

Global Followership Conference
If you study followership, whether as a student or faculty, this conference is for you. If you are a practitioner or learning and development professional looking to bring new ideas, new solutions, and new interventions that complement leadership into your organization, this is the conference for you. And if there is a related theme you have been itching to discuss with other smart, thoughtful people, this conference is for you. If you have heard about followership but wonder if it has value in your work, community, or personal life, come.

Location: Christopher Newport University
Date: March 24-26, 2023

  • Oct. 31, 2022 - submission deadline
  • Dec. 1, 2022 - registration opens


A Quote About Followership

  • "Most of us are leaders in some situations and followers and others; they are two sides of one process, two parts of a whole." - Ira Chaleff


Resources Mentioned In This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. 


My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.


Connect with Scott Allen


Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  

Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thank you for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today I have three wonderful guests and friends. I have Sharna Fabiano, she is the author of Lead and Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork. And she is here to talk about a conference, the global followership conference. I also have Lacey Grey Hunter. She's the director of the President's Leadership program at Christopher Newport University. She's the co-chair of this upcoming 2023 global followership conference and Lori Throupe. She's an instructor of Leadership Studies and faculty director of academic success at Christopher Newport University, and she's also the co-chair of the 2023 Global followership conference. And that's really our topic today we are going to discuss everything followership and the three of you. I've seen two of you, within the last couple of days, at the ILA conference, which was awesome and fun and adventurous - Sharna so sad that I didn't get to see you, hopefully, next year in Vancouver. We'll be back on the west coast, but good morning. Hello. How are the three of you?

 

Sharna Fabiano  1:15  

Hello, good morning. It's a pleasure to be here again, Scott. miscued? The ILA, but it's great to chat. As always,

 

Scott Allen  1:23  

Well Sharna, you know that I think you are the first three-time guest on the Phronesis podcast! This is a very special moment in your life. I'll send you a certificate for the first-time guest.

 

Sharna Fabiano  1:35  

I feel deeply honored.

 

Scott Allen  1:39  

This is that turning point in life where everything shifts, and we're going to break through right. And Lori and Lacey Grey, so good to see the two of you. Thank you so much for being with me today. And I'm excited to jump in on this topic, the global followership conference.

 

Lori Throupe  1:54  

Yes, thank you, Scott, for having us this morning. We're excited to talk about this.

 

Scott Allen  1:59  

Okay. So to start off, I want to ensure that listeners have a really kind of a grounding in some of this thinking around the topic of followership; I think it was episode five where Ron Riggio said something to the effect of “leaders don't do leadership. Leadership is co-created by leaders and followers.” And that was a quote that just from the very, very beginning, and Sharna, you may have been a guest number 10, with certainly within the first ten guests, and we had this just a really wonderful conversation around followership. And I think, especially in the West, we tend to lionize the role of the leader, emphasize the role of the leader, and de-emphasize the role of followers in the equation. And there are some really cool things, and I'm taking these directly from Sharna's book right now, in The Courageous Follower, Ira Chaleff, says, "most of us are leaders in some situations and followers and others, they are two sides of one process two parts of a hole. Teachers and students form a learning circle around a body of knowledge or skills, and leaders and followers form an action circle around a common purpose.” And Sharna, as I read this, you're gonna say, “Wow, who wrote that?” That is incredible because it is. So here, I'm going to take a section from your book. If the value of leadership still seems more obvious than that of followership, it may be at least partly because we often take followership skills for granted, including the deceptively complex ability to get work done and to get it done well and on time. Unlike leadership training for managers and managers and executives, companies rarely invest in corresponding followership training for their employees. Yet they are frequently disappointed when these invisible skills are absent. Or you go on to say; ironically, the response is often to invest in more leadership training for managers, reasoning that better leaders will make followers better; this strategy may be partially successful. But what if the opposite were also true? What if effective followers could actually make leaders more effective perhaps if we begin to name and articulate the impact of followership skills, investment in training in them will become just as critical as an investment in training and leadership skills? Wow. So Sharna kind of brings us into some of your thinking around this topic. I think that's just beautifully said. Beautifully said.

 

Sharna Fabiano  4:31  

Thank you. Yeah, I do believe that. I do believe that. And I'm heartened, you know, since we have that early conversation, Scott, that there's more and more conversation around followership; I am hearing it from all directions. And at the same time, I want to acknowledge that it's, it's almost like a psychic challenge that we've been, you know, we've been trained, we've learned about leadership for so many decades, and the word follower and followership still have a little cringe effect on it. And I want to just acknowledge that because it's important to acknowledge it in order to move past it. And I think there are a lot of cultural reasons for that, that we don't need to get into here. But just naming it is, I think, important because then we can say, all right, yes, we have a little bit of resistance to this. It's all right; we're gonna stay curious about it and see what else might be there. When we do get a little curious, even about our own resistance to it, we see these invisible skills. Oh, okay. Yeah, actually, when I'm leading a team, it does really matter if people are showing up on time paying attention to me, you know, following up on the little details that they promised, maybe bringing me a piece of information that I didn't have before that really influences my next decision, as a team leader. Maybe there's expertise in that team. That means it's better for not me to lead for a certain week or a certain meeting. That's to my benefit, which makes less work for me, and more productive output overall. Those are the things that I think people are starting to recognize more and more, and when I say those things to people, they immediately realize, oh, yeah, I've done that. I've been that person. And naming that as followership just makes it easier to fill out the skill set, so to speak.

 

Scott Allen  6:25  

In our first conversation, I believe that episode was called connect, collaborate, and create. And you you have this beautiful, you're obviously you have a background in dance. And you had this beautiful phrasing my students over and over will kind of highlight that they love that phrasing of inviting there's ownership and being a part of the process. It's important; this word intentionality just comes to mind are leaders intentional about when they do step back and move into the follower role? Because they might not have the expertise because they might not have the best questions because they might not be in a moment where they can be the best to facilitate some type of conversation. So in a sense, I mean, Lori and Lacey Grey, and I was in a conversation this weekend, which was a lot of fun with Tony Middlebrooks for probably an hour, one of those side conversations where we had our own session. It was our own session that we created on the spot. And you know, there's a dance there if I'm intentionally moving in and out of what's appropriate or most appropriate for me to embody in that moment, that intentionality exists, right?

 

Sharna Fabiano  7:39  

Absolutely. And the reason I love the dance partnership metaphor aside from my own love of dance because it's so clear when you have only two people to look at, and you can see what they're each doing. And then you begin to see it's not inferior or negative to be that follower partner. Actually, it's just another way to connect, collaborate, and co-create. And if I could, you know, encourage any leader out there to do one thing in the next year, I would say, really put some intentionality behind those moments of stepping into the followership role and don't see it as a step-down. I see it as a step sideways.

 

Scott Allen  8:22  

I love it. I love it. I see it as a step sideways. That's just so beautifully said. It's not a step-down. It's a different role in that moment. Right?

 

Sharna Fabiano  8:31  

Absolutely. And in my Tango classes for years and years, when I could persuade, cajole, and entice people into trying both roles, the consistent comment that I received, always from those who had, say, only practiced the leader role for a while and then, you know, decided, Okay, today's the day I'm going to try out following was, Oh, my goodness, I had no idea. Everything makes so much more sense. Now, my leading is going to be different now. And it was always a revelation. It's never a soft thing. It was always a big aha, big insight. And I see the same thing, no, in the workplace. Now, when someone takes that leap and says, Okay, I'm just gonna try it. I'm gonna try this idea of stepping sideways and seeing what happens. It's like, wow, you see the whole dynamic in a really different way. Certain things become effortless, you know, the, I wouldn't say there's no effort in, there's always offered and working together, but it's a different kind of effort. It's energizing, and it's more complex, and we're in a complex world. So I just really think this is the next big step for us.

 

Scott Allen  9:45  

When I think there's a level of not only intentionality but just mindfulness in the moment. You know, we have never talked about that China, but that mindfulness truly being present in the moment, and sometimes in milliseconds deciding what is my best role in this moment to step aside or to assert. And I think that's so important because you see so many people just on autopilot; they have a role. And they think that that's their only role. And they are being mindful, or really intervening skillfully to use a Kansas leadership center term, intervening skillfully in the moment, and it shuts down dialogue, kills energy. It just really, really can be toxic.

 

Sharna Fabiano  10:29  

Absolutely, I'd say mindfulness is really a foundation for everything, you know, leadership and followership. And those moments, you know, we would say in dance, you train for those moments, right? You build your skills in the class, and then at the moment that you're performing right, or, or working or you know, at work, then you have the ability to switch in a moment because you've already built that into your body into your nervous system.

 

Scott Allen  10:58  

I love it; that gets to a place of automaticity. It almost sounds right; it's just your way of being. And then, in your work, you can get to that place of CO creating in a different way, sometimes more quickly. Now, Christopher Newport University, maybe more than any university that I know of, has had this conversation around followership front and center for a long time in its curriculum. And what I would love to do is go to Lori, Lori, if you would give it give listeners a little bit of a set and setting help them understand the scope of what you have going on at Christopher Newport University because there's a heavy investment in leadership and followership at your institution. So maybe give people a little bit of an understanding of the scope of what's happening there. But then also, where are the roots of followership being a part of the curriculum? Obviously, you have this global conference coming up, and Lacey Grey will come to you in a few moments to learn a little bit more about that. But take us through that, if you would.

 

Lori Throupe  12:03  

Absolutely. Scott, thank you for the invitation. At Christopher Newport University, we have a substantial program of undergraduate student leaders and followers and are seeking to develop them through both co-curricular and curricular opportunities. And so we have over 1000 students in our President's Leadership Program, and they all are studying towards either a minor or a major in Leadership Studies. Wow. And one, it is a lot, and it's wonderful.

 

Scott Allen  12:35  

1000 What's the undergraduate population, by the way, real quick.

 

Lori Throupe  12:39  

5000.

 

Scott Allen  12:40  

So 1/5 of your students are being trained in leadership and followership, Lacey Grey, yes,

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  12:46  

we have over 1200 students who are part of the President's Leadership Program, which equates to roughly 1/3 of the student body. Our program was started by our former president, who was retired, Senator Paul Tribble. And leadership is a foundational value of Christopher Newport. And so that is why you'll see the number of students who are part of the program; it's scholarship based. And as Lori mentioned, all the students are working towards a minor or major in Leadership Studies.

 

Scott Allen  13:17  

Well, and that's so refreshing, you know, I'm working on a paper with Dave Rosch right now and listeners, longtime listeners, they're gonna say, How long have you been working on this paper? About a year for listeners at home? We're going through another revision. But in that paper, we cite some of the research that suggests, you know, everyone's using leadership as a part of their mission or vision statement, or at least, I think it was 23 of the top 25 colleges of business had leadership in their vision, mission or principles, but so few are truly investing in it. And so for Christopher Newport to truly invest in it the way that it is, I think it's just incredible. It's awesome. So Lori, where does this kind of root in the topic of followership come from?

 

Lori Throupe  14:02  

So within the curriculum, it ranges from integrating Barbara Kellerman's work in the initial exposure of the students to the leadership literature; they come across followership and Kelly's model of typologies and other elements. At one point, I think, where this really sort of had some substance behind it when we became involved in the collegiate leadership competition, and we experienced the team competition element and the idea that that could be embedded within a course of a work credit course. And so, for our team's class, or what might other institutions be perceived as a team's class? It seemed a natural fit to focus on the essential elements of the responsibilities of teammates to be equipped to respond to a designated leader. And so, since our students would have studied followers ship and various typologies and perspectives on followership. We wanted to deepen that. And it seems a worthy invitation to refine what we follow and how we follow and why we follow and how that changes in different situations. And so we landed on Ira chair lifts work the courageous follower, alongside Mark and Samantha Hurwitz; his work leadership is half the story which situates leadership and followership in a partnership that involves distinct and different skills, roles that are dynamic and equal and different. And even in even before that course existed, the response of the students to followership in their courses. They were just fascinated and wanted to talk about it more. And so we've only seen that amplify through our leader-follower roles class that Lacey Grey and I teach together, and as well as we're starting a followership course this coming semester, and the reality is it's integrated into our curriculum.

 

Scott Allen  16:05  

That's incredible. I love the fact you use the word there, and I just really love that it's integrated. I mean, I think it's wonderful to have a standalone course to give it some, the in some ways, the importance that it deserves. But integrating it throughout, I think, is just incredible. What was so fun in this conversation that we had in Washington, DC, a couple of days ago, really was how the two of you lit up when you started talking about the results you're seeing from the students as they experienced this followership curriculum. And as they experienced it in action, Lacey Grey, would you talk a little bit about that response? Because I think one way to think about this is, oh, who would want to be a follower? Oh, that's a subservient role. It's less than, I mean, we can just go down the list of, you know, who in a job interview is going to say when have you been a great follower, all that stuff, but you're seeing something different in the courses and how the students are responding, responding to the topic, right?

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  17:02  

Sure, both in the course and outside of the course, once we spend some time helping students reframe the idea of follower and going back to what Sharna was saying earlier, once we expand what it means to be a follower, and once we spend some time naming all of the societal negatives that exist around followership inviting those students to investigate, what does it look like to be a good follower, we talked so much about being a good leader, but when we spend time focused on what does it mean to be a good follower and equip the students with the skills to help the students understand what the competencies are, that require good followership, it changes their mindset. And so as a result of the way that we have structured our class students, we focus on that followership; we ask them to provide feedback to one another on how did you show up as a follower and so students' own perception moves from being negative to being positive, and they're telling us I'm going into these job interviews or I'm becoming a different person in my clubs and organizations as a result of spending time focused on what does it mean to be a good follower, students have self-reflected and identified when they weren't a good follower and have taken accountability for the times when they because of poor followership have helped a group move slower towards a shared goal. And so we're seeing students be able to take that outside of the classroom and apply it in their different situations.

 

Scott Allen  18:30  

I love it, Lori,

 

Lori Throupe  18:31  

I was just going to echo one of the incredible things that we've seen is that when the roles are clear, the students have this freedom. And they seem to experiment more, and they become more aware of how they exert influence and restrain themselves from exerting influence on the process. And so this combination of the collegiate leadership competition practice field with the conceptual understanding of followership theory, different perspectives, and being asked to practice and demonstrate and make applications, we've had students who say they didn't really fully understand certain leadership theories until they looked at them through the lens of followership. And then, they saw their relevance and even honed their ability to select particular leadership styles or skills that are appropriate for a given situation. And so that element of freedom has been a really neat thing to see from the students.

 

Scott Allen  19:36  

Well, and I have to say that your experience with The Collegiate leadership competition and some of this other curriculum, I mean, I think what's so fun is that it's been circular. I mean, Lori, you've been instrumental, Lacey Grey. You've been instrumental in helping us even think about how to refine our skill sheet, for instance, within the CLC. How are we acknowledging the leader and the team and their effectiveness, not necessarily just the leader? And so I think it's just so much fun to see how this evolves and continues because I think you're right. Barbara Kellerman talks about the leader, and the followers and the context - her leadership system. And I think for every one of us having those three dimensions on our radar, who knows what it'll be five years from now, but at least right now, it's advancing the conversation in a really, really nice way. Because I love that title of the Hurwitz book, you know, half the story, half the story…

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  20:32  

I think, too, when we're looking at this concept of leadership, and you just mentioned within Kellerman’s definition of leader/followers/context, as a society in general, we spend so much time talking about leaders, and Burns is well-known for his crisis on leadership. And there was a really great article, an opinion piece that was in the Washington Post. I think it ran in Bloomberg as well this past summer that discusses the fact that there's now a crisis of followership. And because we have spent so much time idolizing the role of leader, we have neglected to prepare individuals to show up to be effective members in an entire process. So I encourage people that maybe I can include the link for show notes for you to read this article, talking about the west facing of followership crisis and how much of the world's problems maybe are not going to be solved through leadership that is maybe going to be solved through followership. And so, in my opinion, any opportunity we have to prepare individuals with leadership and followership skills, we should be seeking out those opportunities.

 

Scott Allen  21:44  

Well, if you think about it, it's just silly what we're doing. I mean, to go back just quickly to the dance metaphor, what if we just taught the person who was in the lead role? Do you have a great partnership at the end of that? Sharna? What's the answer?

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  22:00  

I can tell you from experience, and you know, listeners know this intuitively; it does not work very well. 

 

Scott Allen  22:10  

Lori, and then we're gonna talk a little bit about the conference coming up.

 

Lori Throupe  22:13  

Yes, I was just gonna say one takeaway we've seen from the students, and I'd be curious to hear what Sharna has to say about this. But the students as they hone their ability to follow and become more mindful of playing that role. They also are finding themselves as better leaders. And so we know that there's this special relationship between leadership and followership, and they're embedded in one another, and we change in and out of them in various contexts and roles throughout the day. And so, I think there's this profound, integrated element whereas we focus on followers, we also become better leaders. And so I'd be curious, Sharna, those who are taught to follow and are primarily trained in the dance world in the follower role? Are they better equipped to lead?

 

Sharna Fabiano  23:10  

Yes, I'll answer just briefly and not go down a tango rabbit hole. But it's a pretty obvious observation. When you watch, I'll just say it. Women, generally in social dance, follow first, right? So the majority of women learn the following rule; first, I started teaching women to lead early in my career because it's something I wanted to do personally as a woman. And those classes were lightning fast. These women who were experienced followers picked up leading at least ten times faster than mostly men who had not had that experience. So that's one thing that was just blazingly obvious.

 

Scott Allen  23:50  

And, then men were just kind of befuddled.

 

Sharna Fabiano  23:54  

Yeah, the second little piece of tango history here is that the dance itself, and I'm using tango because it's the dance that has the most intense leader/follower relationship. There's no basic step; you have to every step, communicate where you're going. That dance began among men working out together. And the path learning path for those men at the turn of the century was you learn to follow first. It's like a language. So no one knows who the first tango dancer was, who could lead somebody around, but the culturally, you know, established practice was your, you know, your 14 or 16, you go to the club, the local hang out, and you learn to follow the other men. And then, after a few months, you learn to lead, so that was how it went. And then, you know, that all changed, you know, as the culture changed, but that's still the intuitive, quick method, you know, and so, when I teach it both roles, I say, it's not just because I want everyone to do this for empathic reasons. This is also a good reason, but it actually works better.

 

Scott Allen  24:59  

Well, I know that Christopher Newport University is providing a space for people to learn about followership this coming spring. And so Lacey, great. Would you highlight for listeners that opportunity so that people can engage on whatever level they want to I know there's a call for proposals, so people can actually submit proposals and present this conference? But I think also, whether you're an industry, whether you're a scholar, whether you're a student, I think you're open to all who are interested in this topic. And so you could just attend as well. Is that accurate?

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  25:33  

Yes, that is correct. So March 24-26, 2023, we will be hosting the global followership conference at Christopher Newport. And for anyone who is not familiar with where Christopher Newport is located, we are just a stone's throw away from Jamestown and Williamsburg. So about half an hour from that area. The conference is going to focus on individuals coming together to investigate followership, and then to learn more about the scholarly research within followership, and then also to identify practical ways that we can implement followership in our daily lives. And so you are correct. If you are a student who is engaged in the study and application of leadership, this is a conference for you; if you're someone who's in the C suite, this is absolutely a conference for you as well. So our proposals are currently open. If you head to followership conference.com, you'll be able to get more information about the conference itself, as well as view the proposals, and we would love to see a wide variety of proposals. So, we're thinking panels, we're thinking workshops, things that get people up on their feet; perhaps you're also someone that has seen the benefits of followership through something like dance. So, this is an opportunity for individuals to put their creative hats on and to come to join us in Newport News, Virginia, for this conference.

 

Scott Allen  26:52  

Great. Lori, anything you want to add? 

 

Lori Throupe  26:55  

I was just gonna highlight the interactive component. So the nature of this conference will be highly interactive and is friendly to those who are just intrigued about followership, have no idea what the literature has to say, and want to learn a little bit about it and be a part of dialogue and discussion and how we can integrate this into improving.

 

Scott Allen  27:18  

But I love that notion of dialogue and discussion. Sharon, I know you're at the first global conference. And so, I want to hear a little bit about that. But, again, even this conversation that we had for about an hour, I believe that was Saturday, you know, it's complex, it's not something that is completely understood, I think we are co-creating and learning and CO learning, and how to think about this as a topic. And so I'm sure dialogue and discussion was front and center at the first conference; is that accurate? Sharna?

 

Sharna Fabiano  27:51  

Absolutely. And I would say one of the things that were so exciting to me, both as a participant and a facilitator at that first conference in 2019, was how the conference itself embodied the principles of leadership and followership dynamics in a fluid creative way. And I want to give a shout-out to the authors of leadership has half the story Mark Samantha Hurwitz mentioned earlier they produced the first conference in Waterloo, Ontario.

 

Scott Allen  28:19  

Okay, well, listeners, you're gonna have all kinds of links in the show notes as to how you can get involved, how you can submit a proposal, how you can register for the conference; all of that good information will be there. Proposals are due on the 31st of October on Halloween; is that accurate? Okay, correct. So I always close out this conversation. What stood out for you in recent times, you all I just watched this fascinating documentary last night. And for those of you who have been involved in the collegiate leadership competition, you know the name Sarah Safari. Well, there's a documentary right now called aftershock on Netflix that really, in a very visual way, talks about this earthquake that hit Tibet in 2015. And there are so many concepts leadership followership concepts. Around this whole I think it's a four-part series, maybe it's three-part, but just a fascinating view. So, for listeners, aftershock on Netflix is a harrowing tale powerful production. But again, what happens in a crisis and in a space where there's chaos? How do human beings form whether you're on a mountain, or you're in the city, or you're in a village? It's really a fascinating, fascinating observation. Sharna, what is what's caught your attention recently?

 

Sharna Fabiano  29:33  

You know, Scott, it's not a recent book, but it was such a powerful read that what you were just sharing about the documentary reminded me of it, so I'm going to show that it's Rebecca Solnit book, a paradise built in hell, okay. And he's one of my favorite writers, and this particular book explores what happens in the aftermath of a disaster. And to your point, so many incredible insights around leadership and followership and things. Most of us just aren't aware of it if we haven't lived through something like that. So that's my recommendation.

 

Scott Allen  30:02  

Great, great. Lori, how about you?

 

Lori Throupe  30:04  

I have a few different thoughts. But the one that comes to mind is I'm teaching a special topics course right now on leadership storytelling and personal narrative. And Mark and Samantha Hurwitz's text leadership is half the story that triggered that reminder. And we're working through a text; part of the premise of the course is not only exploring leadership and how narrative plays a role in that and how leaders utilize story and those skills but also how the story itself shapes and leaves our lives. And so one of the works that we use to do that is Daniel Taylor's book telling me a story. And it's a really neat perspective on how we follow the frames that we build within our own minds of those stories that we remind ourselves of. And I would say the other thing is we came across at the conference a new followership text, The Essentials of Followership by Michael Linville and Mark Rennaker. And I'm looking forward to digging through that because we are just initially exploring and looking forward to digging into followership more deeply.

 

Scott Allen  31:19  

Great, thank you, Lori Lacey Grey.

 

Lacey Grey Hunter  31:22  

Oh, I love podcasts. I have too many on my phone to keep up with them. But I have a favorite podcast and it's by a woman named Emily P. Freeman. And her podcast is called the next right thing. And her quote regarding her podcasts is that we make so many decisions every day. And I know that's particularly true for any of us who are engaged in the phenomenon of leadership, and her podcast is designed to help create space for your soul to breathe so that you can discern your next right thing. And her voice is calming, and the practical wisdom that she shares through her worldview, but also as she discusses world events, has provided me with just calmness in the chaos that exists in this world. And so I have so enjoyed listening to her podcast. She's one of those people, if I ever see her at a conference, I'm totally going to fan girl out on her, but her podcast, next right thing, is always something I listen to it every Tuesday.

 

Scott Allen  32:23  

Well, thanks to the three of you for stopping in today. Thank you so much. Thanks for the work that you're putting in to make this conference a reality. Thanks for the contribution that you're making to the field. And again, for listeners, there's a whole bunch in the show notes for you to explore. I'll put some foundational materials in there put some contemporary materials in there that were just mentioned. And you know what, to the three of you, very, very much appreciate what you are doing, the work that you're putting into taking us to the next level, helping us better understand and co-creating this body of literature. I think it's just wonderful. So have a great day. Thank you so much. 

 

All  33:01  

Thanks, Scott. Thanks so much, Scott.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai