Andrew Tarvin - Humor That Works

Andrew Tarvin is the CEO of Humor That Works, a leadership development company that teaches professionals how to use humor to achieve better business results. He has partnered with top organizations--including IBM, NASA, and the FBI--to solve human challenges with humor solutions. A best-selling author, Andrew has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Inc, and FastCompany, and was named a ‘Visionary Under 40’ by the P&G Alumni Network. His TEDx talk on the skill of humor has been viewed more than twelve million times, only half of which were by his mother. He loves chocolate and tweeting puns.

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Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Book: How to Be Perfect: The Correct Answer to Every Moral Question by Michael Schur
• Television Show: The Good Place
• Television Show: What We Do In The Shadows

A Quote From This Episode

• "If people are laughing, then they're listening."

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

• The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. Plan for ILA's 24th Global Conference online on October 6 & 7, 2022, and/or onsite in Washington, D.C., October 13-16, 2022. Register for the 24th Global Conference here!

The Prometheus Project

• About The Prometheus Project
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My Approach to Hosting

• The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.

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Transcript

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:02 
Okay everyone, welcome to another episode of Phronesis. Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today we have a fun conversation. And my guest is Andrew Tarvin. And he is the CEO of Humor That Works a leadership development company that teaches professionals how to use humor to achieve better business results. He has partnered with top organizations, including IBM, NASA, and the FBI to solve human challenges with humor solutions. a best-selling author Andrew has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Inc, Fast Company, and he was named a visionary under 40 by the P&G Alumni Network. His TEDx talk on the skill of humor has been viewed more than 12 million times, only half of which were by his mother. He loves chocolate and tweeting puns. Andrew, I am excited about this conversation. I didn't know that. Does P&G Just recognize the alumni network? Do they recognize the 20 than the 30 than the 40? Because there's quite a few P&G years running around the world, right?

Andrew Tarvin  1:06 
Yeah, there there are now I mean, as far as I know, it's only the under 40. And I was happy that I got it a few years before 40. Because I feel like once I actually turned 40, I can no longer say that. I say formerly a visionary under 40 plus 40 category. So I've got like two more years to take advantage of.

Scott Allen  1:28 
Well, I am so excited about this conversation. I appreciate you being with me. today. We are both we both have buckeye. In our blood, you went to the Ohio State University and started your career at P&G. Now I want to really explore some of the roots of, this work - the space around humor. I think it's just fascinating. I love it. I love being in a meeting when it can be fun and productive. I think that's space. That's like a sweet spot. We're enjoying one another. We're having a good time. But we're also doing incredible work. So you had me at humor. But let's talk about the seed of how this kind of was planted. I think it was at Ohio State University. Right? You started an improv group?

Andrew Tarvin  2:12 
That's correct. Yeah. So my background is in computer science and engineering. And that's the degree from The Ohio State University. And that's been kind of engineer is I think the label that people would most accurately label me as or nerd. It's either engineer, nerd, or "engineered." I guess it really combined the two. And, you know, so growing up, I was one of the I was not the funny person or the class clown. No one ever kind of expected me to do comedy or anything like that. I was always really good with computers, thus to a degree in computer science. But when I was at Ohio State, my best friend wanted to start an improv comedy group to meet people and forced me to join. And I think what I've started to realize is that I don't think he wanted me to join because he thought I was going to be funny. I think he wanted me to join because he knew I was an engineer and a project manager, he knew that I was going to like, keep us on task. He's like, we're all going to be funny. You just make sure that we have funds coming in or that we have business meetings or that we get stuff done because we're all like a natural improviser. So I realized that was still enough, though I was able to do the project management stuff, and also start improv. And I was terrible at it at first. But I did fall in love with that process, both with improv and then a little bit later in, stand-up. And ultimately, what I learned from those things really helped me at P&G and other places. It was like, oh, there's something more than just making people laugh. There's, this can be a valuable leadership tool.

Scott Allen  3:44 
Yes. Can you talk about the moment you were kind of captured? This does a moment stand out where you're like, Wow, this is, and this is while you're at Ohio State where you're thinking, Okay, this is a thing. I'm really enjoying this; I like this, I can be good at this. Was there a shift that occurred,

Andrew Tarvin  4:00 
there was the first stand-up show that I ever did was probably one of the bigger shifts early on, because improv was fun. And it was basically like, it was started by us and a bunch of friends. So it felt like us just hanging out as friends in a slightly more structured way. And then later, like with an audience in front of you, yeah. And I didn't quite know if I was actually funny. Or if I was just surrounded by funny people. Yeah, like, because I know my friends are funny. And they were the type of people that would crack people up just riding the bus or whatever. Like in a group, we were always kind of the ones that we were like looking at, I think in a good way like laughing and joining in on the quote-unquote, fun, but I was not the one kind of starting that so it's like maybe they're all funny around me. But the first time I did stand up and got a roomful of strangers to laugh at something that I had thought of, and that I delivered, I was like, Okay, maybe there is something to me being able to do this. And it was addicting. Like getting that laugh from strangers was like, Oh, I like that feeling. Can I do more of it? And I realized that it was kind of like a puzzle. Like, I started to come up with it, like comedy was almost like math with words. And so like, Okay, can I put this in the right order to elicit laughter? And I think those two things of getting the first lapsing, I was funny and like, oh, there's a puzzle. There's a logic to this. The problem-solving and my mind was like, "Let's do more of that."

Scott Allen  5:26 
Oh, I love it. I love it. I mean, okay, so So I know that you're a new father, Andrew, one of my favorite surprises about being a parent was kind of this realization that, if you choose to, you can help shape the sense of humor of your children. So there's this moment where and this might have been, the kids may have been, I don't know, like six and eight years old, or something of this nature. And we're watching elf. And they're laughing at all of the right parts. They're seeing the sarcasm, they're seeing the irony, they're seeing all of this unfold. And I just remember looking over at my wife, with this kind of like, we're winning, we are winning right now. This is awesome. This rocks. This is so cool. Because then, you know, we move on to Monty Python or Will Ferrell, and I had a wonderful parenting moment this last spring. Our favorite comedian is Demetri Martin, you may know him. And, and I think of him when you just said that the puzzle. I mean, his mind is always kind of thinking about things in that way. So he was coming to Buffalo, New York. And so for my girls that for their birthday, we gave them their first comedy show, and then their first concert. So we drove up to Buffalo, and just had this magical night. I mean, Dimitri had like two and a half years of just, you know, stuff in the bag piled up, his mind just unloaded on us. And it was incredible. I mean, it was absolutely incredible. And so I'm excited for you to have that moment. It's your daughter, correct?

Andrew Tarvin  7:01 
Correct. And she's, she's already starting to develop her sense of humor. And I think I mean, I think what a beautiful thing that you stated is that we as people can help to shape other people's sense of humor in a way, because a lot of times in life, we're looking for validation, or we're looking for a reaction in some way. And laughter is such a beautiful reaction to getting from people when it's kind of intended. And I think you're exactly what we laugh at is going to kind of shape how you become, and that's true for comedians, what they start to get laughs at is kind of how it shapes them as a persona or whatever on stage, but I think it is true of individual people as well. And so whether it's your kids or direct reports, or students or whoever, kind of how you are feeding into their humor does play a role into to what they're like, "Oh, I got a laugh from that. I'm going to do more of it," or, "Oh, I got no reaction from that. So I guess I'm maybe gonna stop doing that." And it changes and evolves. For me, with my one-year-old at home, it doesn't matter how perfect my wordplay is; she doesn't get it. But the funniest thing in the world to her right now is if I'm playing with her, and then I lift her up on top of my head and ask where she went, like, where is she? And then I set her back down, and I find her, and she thinks that we can do it for hours. I mean, that's the type of reward are you speaking of, like the value of laughter and benefit, like the rapport that we have, I think the connection that we feel because we're, we're laughing to the kind of the point of tears almost together me when my wife doing the same thing. It's like, it's such a beautiful moment that creates such a stronger relationship. I think I'm really, really excited to see the humor that she evolved. I don't think people are born funny. They might have certain capacities for certain ideas, but they learn it at some point. Oftentimes through osmosis. I think that people who are quote-unquote, naturally funny, probably grew up with a brother or an aunt or a parent or a friend or whoever, it was really funny, and they kind of picked up on those things over time. For me, I had to learn all that kind of stuff later. But I think anyone can kind of learn those skills in today's absolutely shaped by the people you're around. Oh,

Scott Allen  9:09 
for sure. I mean, we would have during the pandemic, we would be at dinner because we ate dinner, like every night together. It was like, you know, a little bit of Groundhog's Day, but it was great. But we would practice burns, right? We would burn one another, or we would it was so much fun. And they are so quick now. I mean, again, there's this beautiful moment where what comes out of your child's mouth is so funny that it catches you off guard that again, they're bringing their A-game, and so I can go from parenting I can go then go to teaching, even in the classroom, some of the improv or in some of my consulting work, when I'm with a group I'm live and we're creating a tone, whether it's a new class, or whether it's a new group of adults that I'm working with humor, it just it's such a wonderful entree and being able to respond kind of at the moment Meant to what's happening. It's a little bit of a superpower that was taken away in some ways when everything went online. And I really kind of became starkly aware of that. As you know, all of these hundreds of people are showing up on zoom, and it's definitely quiet. And I was struggling to figure out, okay, how do I set a tone now? So I see it in parenting, I see it in the classroom. And you saw it at work. And I think it's brilliant. So talk about the impetus there, you're at P&G. And all of a sudden, you're getting recognized for kind of the sense of humor you're bringing to the space.

Andrew Tarvin  10:35 
Yeah, well, I think you're exactly right about that feeling of when you're laughing with coworkers or people in general like I said, there's a connection there. But we know just from a communication perspective, if people are laughing, then they're listening, right, for them to have a laugh, they need to be listening to the thing. And once they laugh, and they're rewarded for having listened to you, that's why they laugh, they and they had an enjoyable experience. So like, I'm gonna do more of that thing. And so as you use humor, and it doesn't have to be a complete Stand Up Show, but as you incorporate humor into your communication more consistently, people want to pay attention to it because they're like, I know, at a minimum, I'm going to be entertained. And then when you're going to add a message to her, or when you add it into your leadership style, or into your teaching or whatever, then there's like, here's this dual benefit. And so, for me, it was almost the opposite happening. That prompted a more intentional use of humor. Because, as I said, I'm not a naturally funny person. And the more that I've done stand up it to become a little bit more natural, I think of it a lot quicker. But even when I first graduated from Ohio State and worked and started working at Procter and Gamble, I was still relatively new within. I've only been doing improv for two years and stand up for one. And so it was a separate thing. It was separate. I was trying to be that quote-unquote professional in the workplace that we're, you know, the stereotype of what we're supposed to be. And a few months into the job. I remember being in this meeting that was just so boring. So terribly boring, like, makes you want to cry levels of boring

Scott Allen  12:08 
Soul-sucking, like a Dementor. Right?

Andrew Tarvin 12:11 
Exactly. Like pauses time with how boys like that's what Einstein meant with the theory of relativity is that he was talking about, you know, time feels different depending on if you are with a friend, or in a corporate meeting, feels like time is not moving at all. The problem with this soul-sucking ly boring meeting was that I was the one leading it.

Scott Allen  12:34 
Trying to be someone who's the Uber professional and...

Andrew Tarvin  12:39 
Trying to be that rational, trying to be that efficient person trying to be like, No, this is what is supposed to be leaving my personality at the door type of thing. And I almost had an existential crisis very early on in my career because I saw the future in the sense of like, is this every day? Is this the next 10,000 days of work? Right? Because the average person is going to work 90,000 hours in their lifetime, more than 10,000 days of work. I was like, Is this every day, just boring meeting after boring meeting after boring meeting after boring. So I had a call with the same friend that pushed me into improv. And we kind of talked through it. And the net of it was he was just like, do some of the improv and stand up that you're doing. Like, just bring that in your meetings. And like, I was hesitant at first, I was resistant, I was like, Nope, I have to be professional. But I was also balancing that existential dread a little bit. So like, kind of like what do I have to lose like I'm either, you know, and soul-sucking the awful meeting, or maybe in a trip to HR, I don't know, we're gonna see where this balance is out. And as I started to incorporate humor, and in very small but intentional ways, at first, it led to those results, it led to me having a lot more fun being more excited as, like, I'm excited to go in this meeting to see how this thing works. Or I'm excited to put together this presentation because I think it's gonna be really funny when we get to this image or when I can tell this story. Or I'm like, I'm gonna see what the reaction to this email is going to be when I add a joke down at the bottom. So I love puns and wordplay, etc. And the more I had fun myself, the more I incorporated humor, and the more people started to resonate with it. And I didn't know for sure if it was how much it was; it was holding out until I forgot to include humor. Like I was sending these weekly status reports as a project manager. And I included emails at the bottom jokes that custom jokes that I would come up with based on the content of the weekly status. And I would add these jokes at the bottom, and I sent out an email on a Monday, I think, and on Tuesday at a bunch of email responses to it. And I was worried I was like,  did I say something offensive, or what's going on? And it turns out that I had forgotten to include the joke. And so people were applying, they're like, hey, where was the joke this week? Or hey, are you still gonna make that joke, or I only read this because of the joke. Oh, that's awesome. And I was like, oh, okay, so this is good. Getting people to open the email, is something that they're looking forward to; I need to do a little bit more. I need to do it a little bit more intentionally.

Scott Allen  15:06 
So you start getting traction, you start seeing this as a tool, you start seeing this as an opportunity and a way to keep people engaged in a way to bring fun and levity and also bring your personality to the space right? Where others around you bring their personalities to a different level. Did that was that infectious? In some ways?

Andrew Tarvin 15:27 
It started that way. Yeah, it started to kind of have a little bit of a snowball effect, and that people were kind of like, seeing what I was doing and be like, "Wait, you're you're getting away with that?" So like, that's an okay thing that you have a picture of yourself in every single presentation that you do. That's an okay thing. I wanted to be like Stan Lee in the early Marvel film; I wanted a cameo every single day. And yeah, and I had coworkers kind of pull me aside a woman in particular who I talked about in my first TEDx talk of like, the moment knowing that I needed to do this more where she pulled me aside and was essentially like, you know, listen, before joining your project, I was also bored out of my mind, or I was also stressed. It's weird because we live in this society where we can be both stressed out about things in general but very bored in moments, right, in this weird dichotomy of being bored and stressed at the exact same time. And so she was kind of having this experience. And she's like, join your team, though. And I realized, like, No one told you to use humor. Yeah. Right. And she was right, like, No one told me to do it. But no one ever stopped me, either. And I think that was part of the key is that we have this perception that, you know, we're not even allowed to use humor without us ever even trying, without us even taking that step and getting the feedback a little bit later. And so it was her prompt to say, Okay, I needed permission almost from you by doing this for me to start to do it. And she enjoyed it a little bit more. And I wish I could say she's now like a senior VP at Procter and Gamble. And she's, you know, credits all her success to me and all that. She left the company a couple of years later, but she's doing fantastic things. She really loves her job now, but it is one of those things that it was just like, yeah, it becomes a little I think that's what when we're working with organizations, that's a big part of the key is that it starts like any change starts with a handful of people, or even one person making a choice, and it just spreads from there.

Scott Allen  17:21 
Yeah. Well, so talk about some of your observations doing this work for how many years? Is it now that you have been really kind of independent and doing

Andrew Tarvin 17:34 
one year, so I left P&G on July 1, 2012, at the end of the fiscal year, because I wanted to make things easier for my manager and all that kind of stuff, and didn't know if I was gonna, you know, I was like, is it gonna be a year? How long can I do this, or whatever. So it was ten years ago; some things have evolved, certainly, but the truth remains just the benefit of the human side of things in our work. In terms of observations, I think probably it's interesting that the more senior you go, the more they're aware of humor as a benefit. And the more that the gap is in how funny they think they are being versus how their direct reports are receiving it.

Scott Allen  18:18 
Say more about that.

Andrew Tarvin 18:21 
Well, because I mean, first of all, that's true in a lot of, especially for leaders, the more senior you get, the less honest feedback. Yeah, and I mean, that's true, even from like, I remember reading one study where it's something like 87% of senior leaders think they're inspiring, whereas like 18% of their direct reports agree, or some like those, we call that a leadership gap. But there's like a humor gap in some ways as well. And that the type of humor that we can use in the workplace is different than what we use with our friends. And it's different depending on our relationship with people. And so if you're this thinking, like okay, I'm gonna take the same kind of maybe banter type humor that I use with my friends, and use it in the workplace. Yeah, depending on the workplace, sometimes that works. But also, if your status is higher than other people, then it goes from being this friendly banter to now the boss is really aggressive or doesn't understand me. So status becomes a really important thing is to kind of understand the type of humor that is used. Laughter is this thing where it's like, we kind of we think we're funny if someone laughs, but the reality is, especially if we're in a high-status position. Laughter doesn't they might be nervous laughter It might be You're the boss. So I have to laugh. But I don't actually think that's a very appropriate joke, or I don't think it's actually very funny. You're not, and so that's sometimes that's one of the biggest challenges with leaders I think it's two things - one they recognize that it's somewhat valuable within an organization to they think that they're probably like funnier than they actually are. Yeah, and then three, they think of it still as a nice to have, they think of it, not as a thing to necessarily have to invest, and this is when we're first working with people it takes us time and then once we show them some of the Research once we talk through them kind of like why it's so valuable, they start to understand it, but a lot of times in their head is like, I mean, do I care if my employees have fun or not? Maybe? I don't know. But I'm a funny person. So that's all we need.

Scott Allen  20:13 
That's good. I don't know if you've explored the Dunning Kruger effect. Yes.

Andrew Tarvin  20:19 
Exactly that. It's exactly. Okay. Maybe I need to come up with a fun scientific name for this humor gap as well.

Scott Allen  20:26 
Yeah, you should, you should, for sure. So talk about the process of helping people understand the business case. And what have you discovered in your own research about the business case of why this is so important?

Andrew Tarvin  20:38 
Well, I think that there's we can go two routes, and maybe we explore a little bit of both of them because there's a lot of like, actual research done various studies that have been controlled and things like that to see to look at, you know, the influence of hubris and say, persuasion or perceived competence or perceived credibility or that kind of stuff. And then there is also the direction of a single, important but very dumb question. And so the single important dumb question, okay, as you can also answer, is, would you rather do something that is fun? Or not fun?

Scott Allen  21:24 
Fun, Jim.

Andrew Tarvin 21:25 
Right. Yeah. Dumb question. And it's a simple question. But it's a really important one. Because if people...99% of the people that we work with would say fun. And so if, if you made your emails out to your potential clients a little bit more fun, would they be more likely to respond? Or if you'd make your meetings just a little bit more fun? Would your employees be more engaged? Or if you were to make your own work? A little bit more fun? Would you be willing to do it more? Would you be more excited about it? Would you have greater workplace satisfaction, and that's what the actual research people who are maybe smarter and more diligent about testing these things, show us, right, because there are 30-plus benefits.

Scott Allen  22:08 
actually, what you've done, Andrew has just highlighted the fact that most academic research is only validating the obvious. People are making millions of dollars doing very important studies to tell us that fun is good.

Andrew Tarvin 22:25 
And sometimes, but sometimes we need that sometimes to rebuild. And I've realized that like I, because we're starting to do some more original, obviously, we have kind of the qualitative research or the things that we picked up over the years of working with 600 Plus organizations across all industries, and you know, multiple countries, etc. We have those anecdotes and things that we picked up; we're starting to do a little bit more original research as well. And part of that is to recognize, like, people kind of know it. But sometimes, we just need a new story. Sometimes we just need one study to validate this feeling that we have of fun. And so there is absolutely some value to them. You're exactly right. Some stuff, I read a headline. And I don't actually know that it's true; it might have just been like a fake news headline. But said, a study finds that you're more likely to remember something if you learn it while your life is threatened. And it was at a headline that made me realize when it comes to like humor is not the only way to build rapport with people; it's not the only way to be more productive at work. It's not the only way to manage stress. But it's definitely one of the most fun ways to do it's way more fun than having to find a way for your life to get threatened. In order for you to remember something, it's way easier to set up like a mnemonic or some kind of fun joke than to have someone have you study while you like while they have a gun to your head.

Scott Allen  23:50 
What are you from an engagement standpoint? Would you talk about some of the stats and some of what you found when it comes to humor and engagement? Yeah, I

Andrew Tarvin 23:58 
mean, certainly there's a lot of research that suggests, right? When we have something that we enjoy, we're willing to do it longer. So that's from a pure productivity perspective. And that's where things like gamification come in. Right? If you can gamify a process a little bit more, you're more engaged because then you have something to kind of track against or to go against. And we would consider gamification, kind of under a larger umbrella of humor, an umbrella of humor. So when we're talking about humor, it's not just comedy; it's not just about making someone laugh. It's also maybe about putting a smile on their face, or it's about amusing them kind of in some way of which gamification can, can sit. And so certainly, gamification can help with engagement. You just see cultures of organizations that have humor, as part of the culture, see an overall increase of employee engagement of people just more likely to want to be there. You also see a reduction in absenteeism and presenteeism to throw in. I don't actually know that I realize that quiet quitting might just be another phrase for presenteeism; that's all like that is also existed. For a while, it's that idea of, like, are you giving like not necessarily going above and beyond or presenteeism being like people physically being there, but not necessarily kind of engaged in their work? And so it helps to manage those things because it goes back to, hey, I'm enjoying this process. Do I want to do it a little bit more? Yeah. And yeah, the answer is yes.

Scott Allen  25:19 
According to my research, according to

Andrew Tarvin  25:21 
my research, my research, and the other research out there, as I said, we point to we've curated 30-plus benefits of using humor in the workplace backed by research case studies and real-world examples. And so people want to actually see stats, just check out like the actual things, and then they can follow, like, what journal article was published in, and who and all that kind of stuff. But the more and more like, I used to really spend a lot of time looking at those things. But after you read enough research, there's research going back to like 1906, talking about the benefits of like humor in the workplace, even kind of in a factory setting; they would have people read newspapers, in the middle of the factory floor, just to engage people while things were going on. Like, you'd read enough research, and you're like, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna keep up with research, but it's not gonna be the thing I hang my hat on, because it's like, you asked me what you want. And I'm sure I can go and find a study that talks about its benefits of it. So it's more about, I guess, maybe it's more going from logos to than ethos, and terms of influence techniques of like, what's the emotional thing? What is it that you feel you would be engaged with a little bit more? And does that apply to other people? Because we're human, then? Yes.

Scott Allen  26:26 
Okay. Case study, you mentioned that word. Is there a client that you've worked with, you don't have to name them, that really kind of surprised you about what was happening in their culture, from a positive standpoint, where literally, as you interacted with this organization, you were hearing things that existed in their culture that really kind of struck you as really nice opportunities does an organization come to mind?

Andrew Tarvin  26:49 
The first organization that really comes to mind is the FBI. Because it's probably the most surprising, and it's the organization that I get the most kind of questions or curiosity about, like, what did you do with the FBI? Right, because like I was, I also was unsure of what they wanted. I was like, do they? Do they want to learn how to use humor in an interrogation room? Right in trouble? I don't know. Why am I in trouble? Yeah, whenever they asked, like, they find out that I had illegally downloaded some albums in early 2000 when I was in high school student

Scott Allen  27:21 
Napster....

Andrew Tarvin  27:23 
Are they gonna come nap me for Napster? As it turns out, so the group that I specifically worked with an incident was the office of the private sector. So they have special agents that go through the whole kind of normal training and one of the offices, they may go to his private sector, where the idea is they want to build relationships with senior leaders at big organizations so that they can kind of get ahead of things so that they, you know, can get ahead of cybersecurity and warn people of kind of what's going out there or, you know, they have a strong enough relationship so that hopefully, people don't embezzle millions of dollars, etc. You know, the things that they had to investigate a little bit later, trying to be proactive, but they've recognized that you know, getting a call or getting an email from the FBI, regardless of the subject. Yeah, it's still intimidating. Yes. Like, I knew I was speaking at an event for them, but to look at your phone, and it says, FBI is calling, it still like, what is going on? And it's still one of the most nerve-wracking presentations that I gave in the sense that it's the only time I have presented it where 90% of the room was armed. Yeah, yeah, it's like they've got a gun on the side of their hip. So if it doesn't go, well, it's not gonna go well, it would surprise me about it. And it shouldn't surprise me now. But it's what surprised me about it was just the sense of humor that the agents had the willingness for them to think about this as an intentional strategy because humor is a great way to build rapport. Especially if you're in a high-status position to use a little bit of self-deprecating humor to share a little bit of a story where you share some similarities with someone, you then start to get through like, Okay, this isn't just a special agent of the FBI. This is a human. Yes. And I think that's one of the things that laughter can do particularly well is remind us that we are working with fellow humans and that regardless of their title, or their position, or their status, or whatever, is maybe nerve-wracking to you about them that at the end of the day, they're human. And if you can make them laugh, or if you can find shared laughter, you're immediately on the same page with at least something.

Scott Allen  29:21 
Yes, yes. Well, it just greases the skids in a nice way. And it builds that relationship. And it's just; it's shared that laughter is a shared experience. I mean, it sounds weird to say it that way. But it just it's a shared experience that I believe makes things a lot easier moving forward. And that's good to hear that organizations like the FBI or just even like you said, the individual agents, their sense of humor, their willingness to laugh, I think that's awesome. I think that's wonderful.

Andrew Tarvin 29:52 
And it's one of the things that I'm very proud of with our work is the client list that you know, it ranges, like I said, across industry functions, etc. So big organizations like Microsoft and IBM and smaller plenty of smaller organizations as well, ranging from brands like Gorilla Glue, etc. But we've also worked with the FBI, the United Nations emergency first responders, nurses, doctors, like people who are doing really serious work. And we recognize that, in fact, if your work is serious, then you would use any tool at your disposal to make sure that you can do it effectively. And humor is one of those tools. Now, that's not to say you should use humor all the time or in every single situation. But there's a moment, I think, for pretty much every single profession and every single kind of role, where humor can play a really valuable role in terms of being more effective in that task or in that position. Yep.

Scott Allen  30:45 
Well, Andrew, what else do listeners do because we're gonna wind down. But what else do listeners need to know? That is what you think is just kind of critical for people to be aware of. And then maybe before I asked you the last question, how can people learn more about your work?

Andrew Tarvin 31:03 
Certainly, well, I can bleed those two together a little bit. Because I think the really important thing for people because some people will be listening to this and like, okay, yeah, I got it, I can, I can do that. Other people, if they were like me, might listen to this and be like, Man, what a dream world that would be to use a little bit of humor, but I just don't have that ability. So good luck to the other people. So the people for everyone listening, I think is really important. Understand that humor is a skill, which means that it can be learned. And a big part of the work that we do is how to teach that skill so that you don't have to go through 15-plus years of improv and stand-up comedy, which is what I did. But instead that we can reverse engineer a little bit so that you can learn it so that you if you didn't have that funny brother, or aunt or family member, or whatever that you learned this from if you haven't taken those classes, this is something that you can still learn. And again, it's one of the most fun skills that you can learn. So you're going to have fun along the way to do that. One thing that we've found that's really helpful for people is we've recognized that if it is a skill that you can learn, then the question isn't, are you funny? The question is, what kind of funny are you? Or what kind of funny? Do you want to be right? Because you can learn it. And so, through our research, we found there are seven kinds of primary ways that people tend to express their humor, particularly in the workplace, but in life in general. And so if you can start with the style, or the persona, or what's most natural to you, it's an easy place to get started. And then you can learn the other ones as they go along. And so for people like, Hey, that sounds interesting additional resources, we have a completely free assessment on our website. So if you just go to humor that works.com, you can take a free two-minute assessment; I'll tell you which of the seven is probably your primary persona and give you some tips on how you can start to incorporate it. Also, on our website, we've got to find you a bunch of free blogs and resources and things out there. We have information about our workshops, and our coaching and all that books, etc. And then also you can I'm very passionate about this subject. So you can connect with me on social media at Drew Tarvin on all social media. LinkedIn is probably one among the most now. But connect with me wherever you want to. And feel free to ask questions. But it starts with that kind of like recognition of, like, okay, this is a valuable skill. It's worth me investing in. And just as I would invest in communication skills or stress management skills, humor is a skill worth investing in. And here are some ways to get started.

Scott Allen  33:27 
Yep. Well, and I love it. I mean, I was speaking with a student the other day, who literally it was this conversation; he has a presentation coming up. And he wanted to add humor, but he was very anxious and very nervous about doing so. And so we explored different options. I mean, it could be a quote that has a little bit of humor to it; you can design it in. And it doesn't have to be you. It could be a cartoon that you weave into the presentation. And so having those different tools at your disposal having an awareness of how, because again, I think you're absolutely right. People think, well, I'm not a stand-up comedian, so I'm not funny. Well, no, there's different ways that your humor can show up, right?

Andrew Tarvin  34:08 
And that's what we would consider kind of an act of curation if you're curating existing humor that already is out there. And it's a great way to start, especially if you don't think that you yourself are funny, because you take something that has already been tested. You take something that it's like, yeah, it's a meme. It's already been proven, or you can go to there's a cartoon collection started by Bob Minkoff, a former cartoon attic editor at the New Yorker with that idea of like, you can license these than cartoons as well, if you want where it's like, these are talented people who have been paid money for many years to do comedy. So you know that this is quality stuff. Now you can insert it and then connect the dots of hey, this cartoon actually explained climate change. We've done some work with the Red Cross where they're using cartoons to explain things of what's going on with the IPCC report or, you know, other kinds of more serious things that they need to communicate in a slightly lighter way and so curation is a great way to kind of get started at As his being an enthusiast as another one is just smiling or laughing a little bit more putting your own kind of just sense of humor, the things you enjoy out there. And so I think you're exactly right; start with the things that are a little bit more natural to you. And then just and the key, I think there is, is just being more intentional about it just be a little bit more intense about how can I make this one moment just a little bit more fun? What are the possibilities?

Scott Allen  35:22 
Exactly? Exactly? Well, Drew, as I wind down the conversation, I always ask guests what they've been streaming or reading or listening to something that's caught their attention in recent times? Is there anything it could have to do with what we've just discussed? It could have nothing to do with it. But what has caught your attention in recent times? And I'll tell you; I'm gonna give you one of mine, as well.

Andrew Tarvin  35:44 
Yeah, I want to hear it. So for me, I think it's some of the work by Michael Schur, particularly The Good Place, yeah, the series, and then I'm now reading how to be perfect. He wrote a book about some of the things that he learned while putting together the good place. And so if you're not familiar with the good plays, it's kind of explores the afterlife, but it's really a moral philosophy show wrapped up in a comedy. And so speaking of kind of the ability to make something really, that can be really dry, or heavy or dense, really engaging, that's what the good place is, as a show. And then that's what kind of in the book as well, that I really appreciate is his ability to bring humor to this type of subject. So that is one thing that I think is really standing out to me.

Scott Allen  36:28 
Well, you know, I have to tell you a fun story. So we have a picture of Doug Forcet in our kitchen. Big, you can buy a poster. So as a Christmas gift, I gave this to my daughter because, during the pandemic, we watch The Good Place, we probably watched Brooklyn nine, nine, and The Good Place each twice in the office. And yeah, his work is incredible. And we just loved that scene in the first episode where they feature Doug Forcet. And so it was hilarious because, on Saturday night, we had guests over. And you know, for two years, we were locked down. And we didn't have anyone coming into our house; we just had a picture of Doug Forcet in the kitchen, like just the most awkward thing ever. The son of one of the guests looked at us as he was leaving he was like, "I like the Doug Forcet," we're like, "good, I'm glad you at least know what that is!"

Andrew Tarvin 37:26 
Well, that's the beauty of like humor right at that moment; it creates a shared connection of like we have it. At a minimum, we have this one thing in common. And that's one of the things that humor can sometimes do is it this is why it can be very, very good in marketing is that it can help you identify your audience because if they start to understand the humor that you're using, they're like, Okay, this brand or this person gets me. I want to interact a little bit more. I think that's the most amazing. I have not heard of anyone else, let alone having a picture of your dog force that anywhere. For it to be in a kitchen in public, it's not even like you're off is on a back wall or something. You have lunch with them every day.

Scott Allen  38:06 
We have not taken it down. We and I forget that we haven't taken it down, and then you know, so I don't know, maybe he'll stay what we'll add if he does stay. I said to my daughter the other night we've been watching what we do in the shadows,

Andrew Tarvin 38:20 
or what have we I've only seen the movie. I haven't seen the show.

Scott Allen  38:23 
Okay, so another just classic. And, of course, they have this character named Colin Robinson, who's an energy vampire. His goal is to suck your energy. So he just tells long, long, boring stories and sucks the energy out of other people. You gotta watch the series. It's on Hulu. It's great. And so yeah, we might have a picture of Colin Robinson up next to Doug Forcet we'll have a whole cast. Yeah, you're gonna you're

Andrew Tarvin 38:53  
gonna you've had the most injured people that don't know at all are gonna be like, yeah, the most interesting family.

Scott Allen  38:57  
Yeah. Oh, they look real. That's funky, you know? So yeah, if you get a chance, that series, we've been kind of plowing through that one. And it's, it's hilarious. I mean, it's inappropriate. It's not for the faint of heart for anyone listening. Don't have your young children watch it. But it is. It's along the lines of the office, but it's gonna empires, right, yeah. And there's some language and some swearing, but Well, I have much respect for the work that you do. Thank you for making not only the workplace but the world a happier place and helping people smile, and enjoy what they're doing while they're doing that work. I think it just makes all the difference. I really believe that, and thank you, sir. Thanks for being with us.

Andrew Tarvin 39:43  
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai