Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

Dr. Andrea Brownlow - Leadership & Constructive-Developmental Theory

September 16, 2022 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 141
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
Dr. Andrea Brownlow - Leadership & Constructive-Developmental Theory
Show Notes Transcript

Dr. Andrea Brownlow is both a consulting and coaching psychologist (MAPS) and the founder of Berkeley Hall Associates, a small private practice dedicated to leadership development.  Dr. Brownlow is also a part-time academic in the School of Psychology at the University of Sydney.  She was awarded a University Postgraduate Scholarship in 2017. She completed her Ph.D. at the University of Sydney in 2022 under the supervision of Dr. Michael Cavanagh and Dr. Sean O’Connor (respectively Deputy Director and Director of the Coaching Psychology Unit) and Dr. Helen Parker (Senior Lecturer in the Business School).  Her thesis is titled Measuring Adult Development and Exploring its Relationship to Leadership: Parallel Journeys through the Lens of Constructive-Developmental Theory.

Dr. Brownlow holds a Master of Science in Coaching Psychology (2016) and Bachelor of Science (Psychology) with first class honours (2004) from the University of Sydney and a Bachelor of Business in Organisational Studies (1996) from Queensland’s University of Technology.  Dr. Brownlow and her husband, Mark, live in Sydney, Australia, and are the parents of two very active and wonderful teenagers. 

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A Quote From This Episode

  • "There is an evidence base. And I think it's a pretty substantial evidence base that demonstrates how important adult development is to leadership."


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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast. Thanks for checking in wherever you are in the world. Today. I'm excited about this conversation. We have Dr. Andrea Brownlow, a newly minted doctor. Congratulations doctor! She is both a consulting and coaching psychologist, and the founder of Berkeley Hall associates, a small private practice dedicated to leadership development. Dr. Brownlow is also a part-time academic in the School of Psychology at the University of Sydney. She was awarded a university Postgraduate Scholarship in 2017 and completed her Ph.D. at the University of Sydney in 2022. Under the supervision of Dr. Michael Cavanagh, Dr. Sean O'Connor, and Dr. Helen Parker, her thesis, or if you're in the United States that her dissertation is titled, measuring adult development and exploring its relationship with leadership, parallel journeys through the lens of constructive developmental theory. Andrea also holds a Master of Science and coaching psychology, and Bachelor of Science in Psychology with first-class honors from the University of Sydney, and a Bachelor of Business in organizational studies from Queensland University of Technology. Andrea and her husband, Mark, live in Sydney, Australia, and our parents to two very active and wonderful teenagers. Dr. Brownlow, thank you so much for being with us today. What else do listeners need to know about you? What else can you share?

Andrea Brownlow  1:33  
Well, first of all, Scott, thank you very much for inviting me on. I'm very honored. Having seen your list of guests over the last? How long is it seem that you've been doing yours? 

Scott Allen  1:44  
A couple of years now.

Andrea Brownlow  1:45  
Yeah, I feel very honored. So look, I don't know how long have you got. It goes way back. So, you know, if we go right back, actually, my first job was as an equestrian coach. So in a lot of respects, I've come full circle. Wow. Yes. So instead of coaching people on horses, I just coached the people, not the horse bit now. So that was, that was my first career was equestrian coaching, and I trained in the UK. And I didn't go to university until much later. And that's when I, you know, having run my own business, and that's where I started out doing a business degree. And for me, you know, I did the sort of the plain vanilla, you know, accounting commerce pathway, which was actually very dull, I've got to say, but I was working full time and studying part-time. So, you know, I was quite enjoying the intellectual challenge. But about two-thirds of the way through the degree, I realized that I should actually be doing psychology. So. So that was sort of the bit where I started to get really interested in human behavior. So I finished off that business degree and started another one again, part-time, so working full time. And that's how I sort of got into this particular area was, you know, working in businesses, leading businesses, studying part-time, and then took a gap decade to have a couple of children working decade I love that gap decade. You know, I thought it might be a gap couple of years, but it was a gap decade. And that's when I, you know, started my private practice and sort of started doing more on the coaching side of things and more on the development side. And so that's sort of how it all started.

Scott Allen  3:38  
Well, okay, a couple of things on that. So I worked full-time through every one of my degrees so much respect. without children, too. But then also, I don't know if they have this in Australia, but in the States, there are kind of pockets of equine leader development. Have you seen using horses as a medium to get to elements of leader development? And so there's this pocket of people? Now I'm sure you've heard of, like, equine therapy, correct? Absolutely. Yes. Yes. So it would be you know, an offshoot a little bit of that, but I found myself, gosh, this must be well, 13 years ago, with a group of students at a facility and the facilitator was making connections between horses and, and leader development.

Andrea Brownlow  4:41  
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess I'd be kind of qualified. That's something else I can do!

Scott Allen  4:51  
I think here that you heard it here first, everybody. What we can do is take the thinking of Robert Kegan and Bill Torbert, and we can use the horse to determine an individual's mental complexity, right? This is the stage of adult development that they're in. Maybe that's where we're

Andrea Brownlow  5:12  
I am sure Bob Kegan be fascinated! Oh, that's very fun!

Scott Allen  5:19  
Well, okay, so I was so excited when I heard I think I heard about your dissertation from Deb Helsing at Minds at Work. And she said, hey, there is this person in Australia doing some really cool stuff. And really, that's why we're here today to introduce listeners to some of what you've been working on for the last few years, which, again, I think is so absolutely wonderful. And maybe what we do is just start off with just the general scope of your dissertation or your thesis. And then from there, maybe what are one or two findings that we can kind of pique listeners' interests with? You know, I think what that process really stood out for you was interesting. So let's start with kind of that general scope of the project because it's cool. Very cool.

Andrea Brownlow  6:11  
Okay. Thank you. Well, you know, I'd like to mention is the Ph.D. was the first time I'd actually ever been a full-time student, you know, that was just so exciting for me to, to actually just have one thing to focus on. I mean, there was still; obviously, family is a priority. But in terms of a job, what I decided to do was, you know, rather than trying to do my Ph.D. part-time, which you possibly did, I thought, you know, what I've done so much part-time study, I just want to be able to immerse myself in this project. And I'm so glad I did because it was it took me nearly five years. So still doing bits and pieces of work along the way, but really trying to focus on the Ph.D. And so I suppose in a way that was, you know, it really gave me the time to it probably end up being bigger than I thought it was going to be. Basically, it kind of took on a life of its own. So I initially started out wanting to work on a measure that out development. So one of my supervisors, and I think maybe in the States, you call them advisors. So my primary advisor, Michael, had started work on a measure about a decade earlier, maybe not quite a decade, you know, hadn't really progressed with it. And he said, Well, look, are you interested and I, I've done a pilot project on it the year before, when I was doing the coaching masters coaching psychology masters, because Sydney University, we're, you know, pretty tough about letting people go on to do a Ph.D. if their prior research degree was, you know, a little bit too far back. So because it was ten years for me, I needed to sort of proving that I could, you know, still do the research. So I did a pilot project. And again, then introduced to adult development through the coaching psychology unit. And so I was, of course, once I'd learned a little bit about adult development, I was absolutely hooked. That was it. I just started through the pilot project that I would actually make this measure of adult development a central part of my thesis. So that was my intention. And then I got underway. Now, in Australia, we don't do any coursework without PhDs. It's all research.  A lot of it slowly changing in the last probably 12 or 18 months; I've just sort of flipped that around. And there's a little bit of coursework involved. But when I started mining in 2017, it was all purely research, which is the way it's been for a long, long time. So, so you don't have a lot of contact with other students, pretty much, you know, you've got free rein, which is good and bad. But one of the things that we used to do was once a week, we go along to seminars and learn from the other research students. And a lot of the clinical research students had to do a systematic review. And I didn't know a lot about systematic reviews; of course, I knew what they were, but I had no idea of the process. And I went to a couple of presentations, I thought, that's really cool. I might do that first before I, you know, really start working on the measure. I didn't know it was going to take me about 18 months to do it. But it actually turned out to be, I think, one of the most interesting parts of the thesis from the point of view that I guess I was really curious about why there wasn't more research out there about adult development and leadership that that, you know, understand sort of the relevance of adult development. So I was quite, I guess, really what I set out to do was to try and work out is there, you know, what kind of an evidence base is it out there for the relationship between adult development leadership. So it took me 18 months all up now, a little bit slow because it was a process of discovery. And, of course, you know, my supervisor had never done a systematic review. And so I had to go through the whole process of learning, and that's kind of the fun part about doing a Ph.D. Fun and painful is that you actually have to, you know, work things out as you go along. So yes, yeah, I got really Interested in this systematic review. And I think I started out with about three and a half thousand studies/papers. And I decided with my search criteria that I wanted to focus really on empirical studies, so not theoretical papers; they needed to be empirical studies. So, anyway, to cut a long story short, it took a long time. But I think we've got that down to about 70 studies. So the systematic review takes up chapter two of the thesis. But for me, I think, and I'm working on actually trying to publish that at the moment. So I'm close, hopefully, to a couple of weeks off, sending that away somewhere. So for me, I think that's been a really, it was a really useful way to start the Ph.D. And I think there's a really interesting findings in there.

Scott Allen  10:45  
Well, and I have to imagine, Andrea, that this landscape, I mean, it's a little bit confusing, especially when you start to jump in, because even the terminology, ego development, you've got, you've got people using all kinds of different mental complexities, stages of development levels of development. I mean, that's right. What were some observations you had, even as you got down to that 70? I mean, it's just interesting, right?

Andrea Brownlow  11:15  
Yes, I think you kind of had to be brutal to get it down to the 70. And I started out with a lot more. And so I went through several iterations to kind of try and narrow it down. And even when I did that, I still ended up with 70. Really quite, very different papers, very broad. So what I did was I used to set search terms to begin with. So I think that helped to narrow it down a little bit. If I was going to do it again, I possibly use even more search terms. So, for example, ego development, which I didn't use, I use very specific search terms. I think that did help. But yes, I mean, and this is why a systematic review takes such a long time as you need to really read through each paper to see whether it does fit with your research questions. And, of course, some of them don't. And so they don't, they don't stay in. But yes, a lot of the language was quite confusing. And so you've got papers where you've got where they're using Jane Loevinger's measure or Torbert's measure and got other papers using the soI keygens measure. Again, you've got to make decisions about you know, which papers are going to stay within that, you know, that final studies. But yes, the terminology is quite confusing is meaning-making is, you know, like you say, mental complexity.

Scott Allen  12:42  
...frames of mind, I have a list, and maybe I can pull it up for the end of our conversation. But yeah, the listeners have an appreciation of what you sifted through. So what findings when you got down to the 70? What were some things that stood out for you there? I mean, as opportunities?

Andrea Brownlow  13:01  
That's a really good question, Scott. So there were so many great things that came out of the review. And I guess, at the sort of high level, high-level sort of into things. I couldn't believe how few published studies there were that we're looking at, you know, looking at adult development, the context leadership. And I think all up; there's something like 40 dissertations included in that final in the final 70 papers. So there's a lot of unseen research out there. That really surprised me. So I mean, it's good and bad. It's great that the research is there. And once I got going, that was, I guess, was a driver for me in terms of well, this is really worthwhile because I can make this research visible, you know, hopefully. So there was only something like, I think it was about 26 or 27 published papers that were really looking at adult development and leadership together. And it's really we're talking about 40 years of research. So that really surprised me a lot. But I think it also explains why, you know, it's a bit of a, I guess, it's a little bit of a vicious circle in the sense that, because a lot of that research is is unseen. Other researchers don't know it's there. They don't know what to build on. They don't know what the base is. But there is an evidence base. And I think it's a pretty substantial evidence base that demonstrates how important adult development is to leadership. Yeah, and there's, there's quite a diversity of studies too. I mean, in that systematic review, so there's studies that are looking at that sort of studies from the education sector from certain more corporate professional areas, the studies on sustainability and looking at really sort of quite advanced leaders who are very successful in sustainability space. And the leaders that are really effective are those leaders that are much later stages of adult development. So there's a whole range of studies covering all sorts of areas. Some of the more, I guess, detailed findings are probably around the fact that growth and development is a really slow process. It doesn't just happen in the overt path after a three-month leadership development program; we're talking can take years. Now, that's not to say that a really effective 12-month leadership development program won't bring about change because there are a number of studies in the review, systematic review that actually demonstrate that that does happen. But it tends to happen at lower levels of development, earlier stages of development. So, for example, you know, using Kegan's framework, it's easier for a leader at, say, stage three to shift than somebody had stage four, for example. And that was a really consistent finding. Across all of the studies, it's much easier for leaders at earlier stages of development to shift.

Scott Allen  15:54  
Because, you know, when I think of just even, this is just for my own interest and interest of listeners per head, potentially, but when I think of at least the little I've explored the space and I have not explored the dissertations, to the degree any in any way, shape or form that you have. Mostly just the published work. But it seems to me that Karl Kuhnert and his colleagues, oftentimes his students, yes, really has kind of the most, absolutely in the business space, at least. And then there's some from the Center for Creative Leadership, you know, some, but is there any other pocket that you found where you said, wow, this person, you know, in Bangladesh is doing? Really, there's a base here? Or was it kind of scattershot? No one really gaining any kind of consistent long-term traction? Is that accurate?

Andrea Brownlow  16:50  
I think I think it is accurate, Scott. And I wish there was a pocket here, like a really solid base out there. And there's not, and I think, and I think that's largely because a lot of this research is unseen, it's invisible. Because a lot of it's unpublished, so hopefully, that's what the review will; I'm hoping that it will generate a little bit of interest and go, Okay, you know, I can build on this piece of research, or I can build on that piece of research because that's one of the critiques or the criticisms is that it's a very disparate body of research. Think 40 years; there's so little research published out there. I mean, I think; obviously, Bill Torbert is another one. You know, he's done a lot of work in that space. But it really is. It's a core group of researchers that have produced this quite disparate body of research.

Scott Allen  17:39  
And that's why I was so excited about your dissertation because I believe wholeheartedly that this can become a base camp for people from which to then do their own exploration because this work that you have pulled together, in my mind, will be a seminal piece of work moving forward for anyone who's passionate about the topic. And so I just have so much respect because holding that together and doing it means, literally, you were hunting and gathering. You were fishing! I mean, I just have so much so. Okay, so that's a really interesting finding. So it may be more, it may be easier to help people, you know, shift at earlier stages of development. Were there any other findings that stood out for you, as you kind of looked at what, what's been found so far?

Andrea Brownlow  18:37  
I mean, the general agreement was, is that adult development is very hard to measure. We no surprises there, but consistently through all the research, everybody, and it didn't matter whether they use the SOI, you know, Bob Kegan's measure, or whether they use the sentence completion test. The general consensus was, that it's very difficult to measure adult development. And it requires, you know, even if you've done the certification process, it requires a higher degree of expertise. So it's very labor intensive. And with the SOI, for example, I think, you know, you have to have two people scoring the interviews. So first, you have to have the skill to be able to do the interviews, and then you've got to have a couple of very good scores. So the other end of my thesis or my dissertation, the sixth study that I did was actually a small study, a qualitative study. So as a test so is with quite senior leaders. And so I was very fortunate in that I was able to have Nancy pops help, Dr. Nancy Popp. Oh, good. Yeah. So, Nancy was my expert score, and the only reason I knew about Nancy was through the systematic review, and I kept in all the acknowledgment sections of all these dissertations. See Nancy Popp, and I thought, Who is this person? Like? She sounds amazing. So I tracked her down. If I could get Nancy too, you know, to be my second score and to teach me some more about the Soi, that would be wonderful. And I did. So that was a real highlight for me was actually working with Nancy, and Nancy said, "Well, I can just score them for you. Or at the other end, you know, we can do some coaching." And I said, "Look, I'm all for the coaching" because I really want to, I really want to hone my skills. So yeah, Nancy's very thoroughly coached me,

Scott Allen  20:24  
Andrea. Okay, I'm gonna put a couple of links to a podcast episode between Keith Eigel. And Nancy pop, she did a couple of conversations with Keith eigel. So I'll put those in the show notes for listeners, just so you can get a sense of who Nancy Popp is. And we've used the term SOI a couple of times in the context of this conversation for listeners, Subject-Object Interview, it's, it's the protocol for assessing an individual's developmental stage, according to Kegan's model, and as Andrea said, there are different there's what is it the Washington University Sentence Completion test? Yes.

Andrea Brownlow  21:03  
That's Jane Loevinger's measure. Yes, yes.

Scott Allen  21:05  
Yeah. So there are a few differences that are out there. But I will put some links in there. How close were you with Nancy's assessments? Because she's probably one of the best in the world at this point.

Andrea Brownlow  21:21  
It is, yeah, she is the most expert of the experts. She was so Nancy was, you know, in on the SOI, from day one. She's fantastic. She's so knowledgeable. I was pretty close with about half of them, or close or, you know, on the money with half of them. Now, we're not talking about a big sample; thank goodness, it was only eight. Yes. But the other four, I definitely scored them higher than that. And so it really demonstrated to me how important it is to have a second score, who's an expert score. So I've done the certification process. And I've probably done about 40 or so eyes. So I'm pretty familiar with them. You really do need somebody else who you want to get an accurate assessment of someone's level of adult development; you really need to have an expert score. So, the other for mine were a bit high. Nancy very patiently schooled me and showed me how they weren't quite that high. So I think for me because I've done all the interviews, as well. And because I knew the backgrounds of some of these leaders, I think I was really in the zone of assuming that they were at slightly later stages of development. I think that's probably what influenced my scoring to a degree because all eight leaders were in really very senior roles, and some of them managed billion-dollar budgets. And we're talking very senior leaders. And so I almost had this automatic assumption that they must be around that stage four order of development. So that's quite an advanced stage of development for all of those eight interviewees. They were all at different stages. So the most developmentally advanced leader was around five, stage four. And we had a leader who was actually below stage three, which really took me by surprise. Wow. So that was interesting.

Scott Allen  23:12  
Well, for listeners, I think something, and Andrea, please push back if you disagree with the statement I'm about to make. But you know, the thinking is that individuals at different levels of development will kind of construct the role of leader differently. And yes, they enact their authority differently, depending on how they make sense of the world. Yes. And Karl Kuhnert was at 8819 85. I forget what year it was Andrea, but he wrote an article about transformational leadership, applying Kegan's work, Kuhnert & Lewis; I believe it was yes, yes. 1987, I think I think we're geeking out, right? That's, you know, really kind of one of the first just beginning to hypothesize well, how, how would a leader at this stage kind of construct the role and make meaning of it? So that's interesting. That's really interesting.

Andrea Brownlow  24:09  
Yeah, it's quite fascinating, because, and the other probably interesting part from that final study in the thesis was was the fact that these leaders that are that sort of stage three slash stage four, where they're operating from the sort of two orders of development, they were quite stressed. And so that was quite an interesting finding. They were really quite in over their heads as keygens. That's obviously the name of Robert Kegan's second book in over our heads. Now, these leaders were still moderately effective; they were still quite good at their jobs. But they had, I think they really had to work very hard at being good at their jobs because they really didn't have that level of, you know, independent thinking that was required for them to be really effective. And so, so there was quite a common theme with these leaders who weren't at that. fully self-authoring stage of development, you know, they struggle with conflict, they, you know, had a desire to please their colleagues and their subordinates, they were sort of quite keen for others approval, you know, they were very, it really looking to meet other people's expectations rather than setting, setting their own goals per se, based on their experience, and their, their knowledge. So the confidence levels differed quite significantly between those leaders that sort of in that in the middle, you know, between stages three, and four, and then those couple of leaders that we're really around that stage for level, there was quite a difference in their, their self-confidence that really came through in the interviews too.

Scott Allen  25:44  
So Andrea, and as we kind of begin to wind down our conversation, I have one final area that I'd love to explore with you just to see what you found when it comes to helping people kind of along that journey, where their pedagogical interventions were their sources of learning that you came across in the literature. You know, again, that could be critical reflection, it could be where there are elements of programming that helped people begin the habits of mind or move along the process of development, any indicator of that. And the studies that you explored?

Andrea Brownlow  26:30  
From the systematic review, there was a range of things that helped to really successfully sort of, for people to grow. And it was things like even things like experiential learning, so field trips, so field trips, that really cause people to sort of question their assumptions around things. But again, experiential learning needed to be followed up in the classroom with critical reflection with, support, and with a good holding environment. So that was another factor that came out of this history. Another sort of finding from the systematic review was that, obviously, the holding environment makes a big difference to ongoing growth and development. And so a holding environment can be as simple as So for somebody younger, could be school, a school environment, or for an adult, it can be their organization. And then there were several studies that we're looking at coaching as a holding environment as well. Okay, and coaching was found to be, again, it comes through as being quite consistently effective at supporting people's development. And that came out of the final study as well with the eight leaders that I did a consistent theme from them. And they had. Actually, they are in the process of doing a 12-month Leadership Development Program. And coaching was a big component of that program. And that was consistently mentioned by each of the coaches in terms of being a significant factor for them and helping them to grow. And they've felt that like they had changed to a certain extent. And then the measure that I developed in the middle part of the thesis, the four studies did actually show that most of those leaders did grow to a degree. So coaching was found to be very effective. There was a Canadian study on a mindfulness program, a 12-month mindfulness program that was actually successful in producing some change and some developmental growth; I think they use the sentence completion test in that study from memory, things like so shared leadership, for example, promoting diversity and change in the organization. shared decision making, things like cross-cultural programs, internships, all those things that take people out of their comfort zone, seem to really support growth and development. But again, those things in isolation don't necessarily work. Unless people have the support, say, you know, either back in the classroom, or with a coach, for example, so, so you need to provide that holding environment that not just challenges, but also supports people as well. So it's about having that right balance of support and challenge is a huge factor.

Scott Allen  29:14  
Okay. Well that's really, really interesting. I'm Dave, who you have met; we're working on a paper right now. And yes, I would love to send it to you, too, just to get your thinking and perspective. Because we're very interested in that, you know, Kegan & Lahey and associates had written the book about, you know, An Everyone Culture: Deliberately Developmental Organizations. And something we're interested in is how do you design deliberately developmental degrees where we can get people at least on the path, you know, the habits of mind that will provide them with opportunities for growth and development. And so I think it's just a really interesting conversation. If we agree with the general notion that leaders at elevated levels of mental complexity will be more successful, generally speaking in Yes, tackling these very complex roles, to your point, maybe if they're self-authored, they'll experience less stress because they'll workplace of their principles and values. And then how do we help people in that process? How do we build those habits of mind, right? And think sometimes we've been talking about sometimes our degrees, at least when it comes to the topic of leadership, we put people in a room, and we teach them the history.

Andrea Brownlow  30:40  
Yes, that's right. Yes,

Scott Allen  30:44  
provide them with the tools to get on the path to being more successful, tackling these just really challenging roles, right?

Andrea Brownlow  30:53  
And I think that's where the experiential learning comes in too. It's about going out there going out into the field. It's about guests. It's about things like placements and short internships and exposure, and it's mentoring. So coaching and mentoring were such a big thing. Even things like peer coaching, peer coaching can work really well in a classroom setting, where you might not have the budget for everybody to have an executive coach. But peer coaching groups seem to work really well in terms of providing that level of support that's needed for growth as well. And also in terms of critical reflection. So peer coaching works well as it suits most budgets, yes, and longer-term and longer-term programs. So, you know, you'd know to Scott, that there's such a, there's a really, there's quite a strong correlation between education and stage of development. So education is a really important factor in development. And again, this measure, that's, that forms the middle part of the thesis. And that was a consistent correlation, as well with it, I had samples of, I think, 500, in 500, in one study, and 300, and the other, and it was a consistent finding that there is a correlation, a positive correlation between the level of education and development. So just education in itself is a key factor, I think, it seems to be,

Scott Allen  32:23  
Again, I'm just so thankful for the work that you have done. And I know that it will impact so many scholars in so many really positive ways. And so I'm going to put a link to, I believe, we can put a link to the thesis, and I would love for that work to be known. And I think it's just again if I'm going to call it a base camp, it's just to go to space. Because as someone who's tried to begin to gather some of these pieces of work myself, wow, it's complex. So so there's that. So thank you, I always close out the conversation by asking guests what they've been listening to or reading or streaming, and it may have something to do with what we've just discussed; it may have nothing to do with what we've discussed. But what comes to mind for you What's caught your attention in recent times,

Andrea Brownlow  33:13  
I've got to say, I haven't been reading very much. And this is completely off track; my son's in his final few weeks of high school. So you know, that's a, it's a really big deal. And what they do here is they finish up school, and then they go away for about a month, and they study. And then, they go back to school for their final exams. So do to finish officially in about November, but he's, he's sort of been working with over the last month or two, he takes music for one of his subjects for high school. So I've been listening to a lot of really beautiful cello music. For me, it's just such a treat because I'm probably spending half my week working from home. So that's just such a treat to listen to that. You know, it's just an absolute joy. So, that's what I've been listening to a lot. And my son and daughter both play piano as well. So not quite a leadership, not on the topic of leadership. But that's what I've been listening to. And loving. And just soaking it up.

Scott Allen  34:11  
Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. We have a cellist in our house as well, actually two! Maybe less enjoyable at 12 and 14, and what you're experiencing at 18.

Andrea Brownlow  34:26  
It's worth persevering with Scott, it's just I can so remember when they were, you know, a lot younger guys, and just you know, and everybody was telling me you're so lucky they practice, and I'd say, "Well, no, it's not luck." I tell them they have to! It's worth it's worth doing. We just said to them, Hey, it's part of your education. And now they love it. They do it for the joy of it, not because they have to

Scott Allen  34:49  
Well, and that's something they can do for life as well. So absolutely. Well, Andrea, thank you so much for stopping by today. I really, really appreciate it and all kinds of links in the show notes for listeners for you to tap into, even if you just want to learn some basics around adult development. We'll have some resources in the show notes for you. So check those out. Thank you for the good work that you're doing good luck as you work to publish this. That's a whole new endeavor.

Andrea Brownlow  35:18  
That's one word for it. Thank you very much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Scott.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai