Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

Josh Lindblom - A Work in Progress

September 06, 2022 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 139
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
Josh Lindblom - A Work in Progress
Show Notes Transcript

Josh is currently a pitcher in the Milwaukee Brewers organization, originally drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the second round of the 2008 MLB Draft. He is in his 15th season of professional baseball. Over the last 15 years, Josh has played for the Dodgers, Phillies, Rangers, Athletics, Pirates, and Brewers. He had a brief detour to Korea, where he spent five years playing in the Korea Baseball Organization.

While playing, Josh completed his undergraduate studies at Indiana Wesleyan University. He received a Master’s Degree in Biblical Studies and has just started a Doctor of Business Administration program through Columbia International University. 

Josh has been married for 12 years to his high school sweetheart. They have four kids: Presley (9), Palmer (7), Monroe (5), and Murphy (1). Although baseball has taken them all over the world, their home base is in Lafayette, IN.

A Quote From This Episode

  • "I'm a work in progress, and I'm not where I want to be. But that doesn't mean that I stop working."
  • "I've realized over this journey that academics provide you with the tool sets to ask better questions. And with the ability to ask better questions, come better answers - but better answers than beget more questions."
  • "When I look at athlete transition, my entire focus has been shortening the bridge that I need to step across when I'm done playing."
  • "I struggle because, in business, you hear about scale and breadth of impact. And I keep coming back to the depth of impact. Are we really making a difference in people's lives? "


Resources Mentioned in This Episode


About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

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  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.


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Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Scott Allen  0:00  
Okay, everybody. I am really excited to introduce you to Josh Lindblom. He is currently a pitcher in the Milwaukee Brewers organization. originally drafted by the LA Dodgers in the second round of the 2008 MLB Draft. He is in his 15th Season of professional baseball. Over the last 15 years, Josh has played for the Dodgers, the Phillies, the Rangers, the Athletics, Pirates, and Brewers. He had a brief detour to Korea, where he spent five years playing in the Korea Baseball Organization. And if I'm not mistaken, you won some awards there, sir. You're being humble. While playing, Josh completed his undergraduate studies at Indiana Wesleyan University. He received a master's degree in Biblical Studies and has just started a Doctor of Business Administration Program through Columbia International University. He has been married for 12 years to his high school sweetheart, they have four kids Presley who's nine, Palmer (seven), Monroe (five), and Murphy is one year old. Although baseball is taking them all over the world, their home base is in Lafayette, Indiana. Sir, thank you so much for being with us today. And maybe what are a couple of other things listeners should know about you? Before we jump into the conversation, what do you think?

Josh Lindblom  1:22  
I'm always weird with bios, I think that that kind of covers it; I guess I did a pretty good job writing it. Hopefully, over the next 30 minutes, they'll find more out about me. And just kind of discover along this path.

Scott Allen  1:36  
So I met you through our mutual friend Ethan Braden. And I had a really fun conversation with Ethan a couple of weeks ago about kind of curiosity and just learning. And one thing as we've gotten to know each other a little bit, one thing that just has just really stood out for me about you. Well, there are a couple of things. First, your faith, I mean, that's your you're grounded strongly in your faith, and so maybe we can get there. Second is, you know, amidst all of this, this career in the MLB and 15 seasons, and you but you have this insatiable curiosity and this, this lust for learning, I think you and Ethan have a joke about you're a voracious reader, and you're learning and all of his books have very, very pretty covers and flashy covers, and all of yours are our you know, theoretical philosophical works from 77. As I understand it,

Josh Lindblom  2:33  
they're boring. They're boring. I joke around with him when I say if it was written before 1900, it's, or after 1900, it's probably heresy.

Scott Allen  2:46  
I just this week released that episode with a scholar at Tulane. And, and she was, she's an expert in Plutarch. So I learned a lot about Plutarch. So he would be in that camp of, you know, pre-1900.

Josh Lindblom  3:00  
Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. After listening to that one. Yeah.

Scott Allen  3:04  
Well, so tell me about this, this curiosity. And it's just his passion for learning and how you've systematized and really built it into your way of being even when you're on the road multiple months out of the year.

Josh Lindblom  3:18  
So you know, I think it just comes back to development, really being and recognizing that I'm a work in progress and that I'm not where I want to be. But that doesn't mean that I don't stop working. And I think it really kind of started out of an event on a baseball field. So I was, it was July, I think, the date, right? I'm pretty sure it was July 1 or second. I remember because we had fireworks, and the second pitch of the game, I get hit with a comeback or in the leg, and it breaks my tibia. Oh, wow. And so here I am. I'm in my sixth or seventh year of professional baseball, very little Major League service time, and I don't have a college degree if this was something serious. What do I do with my life? Yeah, I had no answers to that question. And ever since, really, honestly, that day, I think I reapplied for an undergraduate program the next week. And ever since that day, it's just kind of sparked this, I guess, like you said, this lifelong pursuit of formation, character development, leadership development, knowledge acquisition. And it's been fun. It's been a fun process.

Scott Allen  4:34  
So take me through that undergraduate degree because I imagine portions of that are you're taking courses on the road. You know, I've been following Jr. Smith on Twitter. And he's re-enrolled in school. He finished his career in the NBA and enrolled, but now I imagine you're taking courses during the season sometimes is that accurate?

Josh Lindblom  4:55  
All the time. Of course, it's all the time. So I finished my undergrad, and I finished my master's all in season. So going out and trying to get guys out on a Wednesday night and on Thursday morning, I've got a 15-page research paper. That's due the next day. Meanwhile, I've got, you know, at the time, we didn't have four kids, but I've got a wife, I've got diapers to change, I've got other responsibilities. And so I mean, talking about time management and talking about all of the routine stuff. I've realized over the course of the last, I guess, ten years or so that my only routine is that there's no routine, and I just find time to finish stuff. Those are all formative moments for me. I sit where I am today. And I realized that I'm the person that I am. Because of that,

Scott Allen  5:47  
and you've just started a doctorate. And that's I'm so excited to talk a little bit about that. Because in doing the journey, but what was it about being in a class that sparked for you, you get into those first few classes? And is it just like a whole new world is a kind of being open to the coursework in these different programs?

Josh Lindblom  6:06  
Yeah, it's interesting. I think when I went back to college, I thought that I was going to get the answers. I wanted, I wanted to be the answer, man, I wanted to know why I wanted to know the answers. But what I've realized over this kind of academic journey is that academics provide you with the tool sets to ask better questions; and with the ability to ask better questions come better answers, but better answers than beget more questions. So just that skill set of asking questions. And I think that's why I continue to be on this journey of color, you know, knowledge acquisition is that I just keep asking these questions that I want to find answers to, that I think are powerful and formative.

Scott Allen  7:00  
Well, you know, sometimes they call a Ph.D. is just piled higher and deeper. And, you know, at times, especially, even over the course of starting this podcast, I had been a faculty member since 2006. And week after week, after week, Josh, I just kind of have my behind kicked, as I engage in conversations with people from all over the world with all of this expertise. And it's just been such a fun process because it's systematized my learning. And it's challenged each and every week to just stay, stay fresh and stay current. But you said something in there that I think is so wise because, at times, I think as I'm working with clients, and as I'm working with people, there's a conception that leaders have answers. And I really believe that at times, not always, but a lot of the time, especially when it's some of these gnarly challenges that people are trying to navigate. Sometimes the leaders have great questions for the team to work on because there are no, there are no concrete answers. It's what's our next experiment? What's our next path forward to see if we can yield new and different results right?

Josh Lindblom  8:14  
Leaders are really kind of people that are like two steps ahead in the fog. They've decided to charge ahead; just maybe, it's one step further. And like you said, those questions they're willing to embrace that thought that mental fog that that fog that we all have, and we're trying to figure out a concept. The leaders are just the ones that are a couple of steps ahead.

Scott Allen  8:36  
I love that phrasing. That is incredible. Did you just make that up?

Josh Lindblom  8:39  
I did. On the spot. That that is I'm gonna that's the episode title.

Scott Allen  8:44  
I think that, or you've also said, a work in progress, which is another contender for me right now. But at two steps ahead in the fog. You're exactly right. Because even as I'm in the room with some senior leaders in Fortune 500 organizations or family-owned businesses, or small nonprofits, there is no person with the answer. It's, again, to your point, a couple of steps ahead in the fog. And we've identified some of the questions that we need to ask, and what are we going to do? How are we going to tackle this? How are we going to make sense of the situation? I had a really fun conversation with Brian Barren of the Cleveland Guardians. Gosh, this might be six or seven months ago; we really focused on the name change. But you know, they've been in the news recently, really, for the kind of, you know, you have Tito Francona, trying to figure out, okay, our payroll is basically, you know, what some people's salary what Frankie made in a year is the Guardians payroll now, and how do we put a winning team on the field? I mean, that's, that's a fascinating puzzle. It's not easy work. And it's a challenge. It's an adaptive challenge that no person has the answer to, but we're going to experiment and see Far weekend, right? Yeah.

Josh Lindblom  10:01  
And they've, you know, you look at teams like, like the Guardians, the rays, they've been really, really successful by thinking outside of the box and trying to draw as much value out of as they can out of players and fitting them within the kind of like that mold of, you know, this is what it's funny when you can always tell when a player has been with a raise, or when a player has been with the Guardian, just because of their development process. They, they do such a good job, probably as good as job as anybody in baseball, that developing talent, because they know they can't play in the bidding wars game. So the thing they have to be really good at like you're talking about is developing talent. You know, the guardians are good at pitching that they've had the position players like they do such a good job of it.

Scott Allen  10:52  
Well, this whole notion of two steps ahead in the fog. And so I think now, as you look at the Doctor of Business Administration, talk about that. I mean, when we were emailing back and forth the other day, I think you had your first day - is that accurate?

Josh Lindblom  11:05  
Yeah. First day. For more questions, I've been writing a paper on executive presence and the importance of executive presence; I thought that was neat. But it's been good. This program is more practitioner based. So it's not a dissertation as an applied doctoral project. And so the building of business or some type of service, and I think I have an idea. And it goes back to when I got hit in the leg. Really, it's kind of the end of this, I say, the end of the process, but the beginning of the process.

Scott Allen  11:38  
My degree and my Ph.D. was more practitioner-oriented. I mean, we had a dissertation at the end, but everyone that I was going to school with was working full time. So they were at NASA, or they're at IBM, or they were superintendent of a school. And every day, they were looking at this content through the lens of how do I implement this tomorrow, and when I get back to work, so I love the fact that your degree, you're working towards something you're building, you're, you're exploring, but it's going to result in something, which may be some of those next steps, correct.

Josh Lindblom  12:17  
So we can rewind again to when I got hit in the leg. And the last 10 to 12 years of my career have been about shortening the bridge. So when I look at athletes, when I look at athlete transition, my entire focus and goal has been shortening the bridge that I need to step across when I'm done playing. Wow. And so all of the degree programs that my undergrad, my masters, and now the doctorate have essentially shortened that bridge. And now it's like a little creek that I just have to jump across. And I see I see so many athletes when they're done playing. I mean, the conversations that I have with athletes on a weekly basis, where they are confused, and they don't know what to do when they're done playing the I think this project is going to be about shortening that bridge, how do you come alongside athletes and not just say we have a career transition program, but provide mentorship, provide coaching, provide degree programming, provide all of these things where athletes can have an effect just shorten that bridge while they're playing? So that's going to be I think it's good, that's going to be the focus of kind of the research and then the program and project.

Scott Allen  13:33  
I absolutely love it. Because I think you're right. I love what you just said. How do we come alongside folks and help them prepare for that transition, shortening the bridge, which is another candidate for the episode title. You're just dropping them! But I mean, you know, what a wonderful mission.

Josh Lindblom  13:55  
What a wonderful mission. This isn't a knock on professional sports organizations, you know, professional sports, teams, organizations, they're not in the, you know, human resource development business. They're in the business of winning games. And to shoulder that load as an organization. Like that's hard, that's an entire department and an organization. As I thought through this, this is going to be a really bad way of explaining what major league organizations are, but, you know, professional sports organizations, but they're essentially asset management companies. And what I mean by that is, you know, you when you have an asset, you build the asset up when it's high, you use it, when it starts to drop, you got to get rid of it as quick as possible. And it's horrible to explain it that way. But that's kind of the way that I view sports teams. And it's like I said, the goal is not to develop human resources. The goal is to win games, so it makes sense. And I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about coaching, and they asked To me, what's the in a coaching interview? What's the if you're going to hire a coach or a manager? What's the first question that you would ask? And I said the first question I would ask, and this goes back to kind of my theological studies, the first question I would ask is, what is a human being? And when somebody has thought deeply about what a human being is and why that matters, that fundamentally changes the way we interact with other people, it should at least fundamentally change it; when I look at this program and look at this project. When I look at an athlete, you know, I see, I see a human being who has been created in the image of God and therefore has inherent infinite value. I struggle because when in business, you hear about scale, you hear about breadth of impact. And I keep coming back to the depth of impact. Are we really making a difference in people's lives? And not just trying to get massive amounts of exposure?

Scott Allen  16:05  
Let's talk about that. Let's go to depth of impact. What do you see? what are some opportunities when it comes to depth of impact? I love that phrasing. This has never happened. There's, like, five, I've written down five potential titles here. Maybe these are just the chapters of your first book chapters.

Josh Lindblom  16:24  
There you go. I needed. I think the start, I kind of have this little anecdote that I've come up with. So information educates us, and experience inspires us, but information experienced in the community transforms us. And so when I look at organizations when I look at, you know, call it developmental programs, usually information or experiences elevated. So we have content that is the best content, we have information, and we can educate you. But if the information was the answer, we would all be the people that we want it to be five years ago, years ago, or just 20 years ago. Yeah. Exactly. 25. So we've over we've kind of overestimated the ability of information to change us, then the second is experience, come to leadership, conference XYZ, come to this three-day retreat and experience a life-changing event. I've been to those, and I've left them inspired for a couple of days. But that inspiration wanes off. And so experience can't be the answer because experience doesn't last. And the one ingredient that one is added to the equation, for me, at least, that's been transformational, is community. When I have taken in information through a shared experience in a community of people, that has been transformational because there's encouragement, there's like-mindedness, and there's mutual benefit to everybody. And so when I think of opportunities, I just taught a class on the Christian athlete. And we had 12 People go through it, I did some one-on-one coaching with the athletes. And I don't have any data on this, but I feel like the one-on-one group experience the people that put in the time and effort. Yeah, I think if you were to interview them and ask them, they would say that it was really transformational for them. So it's when you add all of those pieces to the puzzle, as I think about opportunity, is you have a group of people, you have an affinity group. So you have athletes; what is the content? What is the programming that they can walk through together? Is that a certificate program? Is that licensure, what you know, some type of character development or Leadership Development Program? Is it an entire undergraduate program that doesn't matter? It's kind of plug-and-play, but who is walking with them through this program? And in my mind, I think it'd be really cool. Obviously, there are two years of work that needs to be done, if it even works or not. But in my mind, I think it does.

Scott Allen  19:19  
Well, it sounds like you have a pretty clear vision at least as you start your studies. And you're exploring things like what executive presence is, where you're starting your studies, and beginning to explore these different dimensions. I think what's so exciting for me is that you can start piecing together elements of a curriculum, piecing together elements of what you think is critical information for people. Just to underscore something you just said, My dissertation adviser, his name is Jon Wergin. I'm going to send you a book. Okay, Josh. It's one of the most important books I've ever read. But John, I did a podcast with him. And that podcast episode is called it has to be with others in all of his research, and I've heard this from multiple scholars, that learning with others and being together in community and learning from the different perspectives, learning from the different lived histories, having that experience and that shared experience. It's just a core ingredient. Obviously, it can happen otherwise, for sure. But if we're talking about transformational learning experiences, that community in that cohort, and being with others, I think what you're saying is backed up by some pretty solid research, right? You have the content, you have experiences, you have a community, and all of those are going to help an individual develop and grow. Those are some of the major ingredients for sure.

Josh Lindblom  20:51  
Yeah, no, I think those communities look different to my growth really accelerated when I realized I couldn't do it on my own. When I started to seek out mentorship and coaching other relationships with people, I viewed their lives as something admirable and something that I desired or wanted for my life. Yep. And then allowing them to speak into me. Yeah, allowing them to help me along the way, allowing them to show me my blind spots, areas where I needed growth, or I was maybe not thinking correctly. And so I think there's, you know, there's kind of this, you know, go back to Ethan and me, a big core value in my life is congruence, see? And, and he kind of like hammers down on this. He's like, always, his marketing mind is like, what does that mean? What does that mean? What does this mean? Like, you need to be clear, you know, there's envisioning a way of life. For me, there's envisioning a way of life that I see desirable, there's engaging, there's engaging that person in relationship. And then there's the empowerment, which I think we missed a lot of times, where we kind of hold people's hands and we go into like, tell mode, rather than empowering people to now live this life that they've seen as desirable, which I think is that is that next step?

Scott Allen  22:20  
It would seem to me that then another element of this is, what are you grounded in? Now? It doesn't have to be necessarily your faith, but you have your faith, and it grounds you, correct?

Josh Lindblom  22:31  
Yeah. You know, this comes I was actually in the executive presence paper that I'm writing, Heineman, maybe an article, she talks about the seven dimensions of leadership, intelligence. And the last, the last one was, I think she calls it Consciousness Intelligence for conscious intelligence, which is basic, which is basically worldview. And she, I can't remember the quote exactly. But she says something to the effect of, it's recognizing that you know, everything happens for a reason, and there's purpose and plan behind all of our actions. When I think about faith, whether it be Christian faith or whatever faith, it is, even people that that are that don't have faith may be atheists or agnostics. What we're talking about here is a worldview. And I had a professor in my master's program tell me one time that when we're developing a worldview, whatever that worldview might be, we have to account for the worldview that accounts for the most possible data with the fewest possible difficulty. And so every worldview, no matter what it is, there's going to be data to support to, but there's also going to be difficulties. As I look at my life, as I look at my experience, as I look at the information that's been provided, for me, the worldview that I have settled on, that's articulated through the Bible and through the biblical authors, is the Christian worldview. So when I look at what is a human being, when I look at what is wrong with the world, when I look at my purpose, our purpose as human beings here on Earth, and when I look at what the destiny of humanity is, the Bible, the biblical authors, the scholars who study the Bible, that is kind of that serves as the foundation for the way that I view and then interact with the world. And we're always trying to make sense of things that happen in our lives. And that's what worldview ultimately does. And so, you know, our daughter was born with a congenital heart defect, and she's had, she's had, two open heart surgeries at five years old. And I'm not saying this to like, make people feel a certain way for me, but that's an event in my life that I had to make sense of, yes, and no, no ever forget this, I'm writing my final undergraduate paper in the hospital next to her bed right after she had her first surgery. And my entire paper was on the book of Job, which is all about suffering. Wow. So here I am, I have a piece of inflammation, the book of Job, I have an experience where I just walked with my daughter through her having open heart surgery. And I'm in a community of people that are also writing their papers. And so that the controlling question of job is getting a job one six, or one seven, somewhere around there. The question is asked, Does Job fear God for nothing? And here I am sitting; everything that I love about my daughters is stripped away at this point. And she's probably not going to be healed. But she has half of a heart. So there's not going to be some miraculous, not that I don't believe in miracles, but it's probably not going to happen. Am I still going to fear God for nothing, not for what he can do for me, but just for who he is? So when I look at worldview, I've got to make sense of this experience. And so what I know is that there is a God who's created the world, good. Sin has infiltrated this world, and we now live in a broken world. So two plus two does not equal four anymore, which is the case, and my daughter, would I love her to have a whole heart 100%? I mean, I would give anything to give her a whole heart. But that's just not the reality that I'm living in. But there is a picture that is painted through the prophets in the Old Testament, through Jesus' teaching in the New Testament, and through the book of Revelation, where God is, and is remaking this world into something new. And this is where hope comes in. Because I have hope that one day, even though probably not in this life, my daughter will have a whole heart. When I look at how my faith practically plays out as I see the world. And you mentioned something earlier that's been on my mind when you're talking about the acquisition of knowledge. And the questions that we have, that knowledge is really just being able to synthesize and connect dots. And so I think what's hard is that the acquisition of knowledge is so like interdisciplinary, that when you think about leadership development, there's, you know, psychology, there's sociology, there are all of these other disciplines. And if you just sit in one corner of the world, you're never going to find all the answers. Yes. And so that's what's been so powerful about the faith background and theological background. Is that, like, I'm able to see stuff and be like, wow, like, yeah, like, that's, you're talking about that doctrine. This is that teaching? Oh, I see how neuroscience and psychology play into all of this.

Scott Allen  28:08  
Work in Progress. You know, your worldview kind of found that the foundation is that Christian worldview. And even in that space, you are a work in progress. We are all working in progress. Yeah. And when it comes to knowledge acquisition, we are works in progress. And I loved you how you said, Look, you know, we're, I always refer to it as a puzzle, that, that I find whether it's human development or leader development, but just personal growth. It's a topic that continues to fascinate me because there are a number of different components that I don't know we have a true understanding of that.

Josh Lindblom  28:49  
And one of the first conversations we had, one of the resources you sent me, was Robert Kegan. And so there's a parallel to that in theology, a guy by the name of Jay Robert Clinton, who has a light, as he calls it, the lifelong leadership development paradigm. And it mirrors very closely how people are shaped through the people, places, and events in their lives throughout time. And there's a really cool exercise that he does; it's kind of like a timeline, a personal timeline, where you go back, identify people, places, and events, and then process those items. And then you're able to distill out the lessons that you've learned, the core values that you've learned, and the deposits that have been made in your life. And so that's the work in progress. And looking back, it makes me realize that all of those seemingly insignificant moments have added up to the person that I am today. And I also know that going forward and when I have that foundation, I can walk into a situation, and I can meet a person I can be exposed to an event and realize that I might not see the effects of this event. But I know that it's shaping me if I'm willing to do that work and process, the item, when we talk about personal development, when we talk about leadership development, spiritual growth, at the core of what all of these are, I think it's about making the invisible visible. And so when we think about becoming better leaders, we have all of these invisible thoughts, ideas in our minds, and visible plans and goals and actions. And what leadership development does, what character development does, what spiritual development does, is it draws those invisible attributes or thoughts and tries to make them visible leadership development, character development, and spiritual development is about embodiment, you know, to use a biblical or theological term, it's about incarnation, it's about becoming more of who we think we are. Yeah, and what and what we should who we should be ultimate, yeah.

Scott Allen  31:10  
And, and that becomes that's a that's an interesting challenge when there's so much pulling at us externally. Good, bad, and ugly, that can get us off track from being our authentic selves and who we're supposed to be and that, that work in progress work, see? Or are you slowing down, reflecting, making sense, connecting with others, and using those experiences for opportunities for that growth and for transformation? Josh, this is we're gonna wind down.

Josh Lindblom  31:53  
The Wi-Fi has been pretty good.

Scott Allen  31:57  
I and you know, I'm just I'm excited to continue this conversation. Can we talk again in August of 2023?

Josh Lindblom  32:05  
Put it on my schedule now.

Scott Allen  32:06  
Yeah. I mean, I want to a kind of hear about your adventures and how you're thinking about things. Maybe we'll both even listen to this before we get into the next conversation. And I want to continue this dialogue because I think, as I said, and I'm going to send you that book by John Wergin. But I just think there are a lot of opportunities here for us to kind of continue to explore. I just have a lot of respect. I have a lot of respect for that. You know, that one critical incident kind of sparked something in you, and you have continued that journey. I just think it's incredible. It's so admirable, sir.

Josh Lindblom  32:43  
No, thank you. Thank you. I told you when he asked me to come on, I felt kind of inadequate. Come on area, PhDs and, you know, it's like, Man, why would you want me on?

Scott Allen  32:55  
You, sir, have dropped more like little knowledge nuggets than any other guests I've had. So. Shortening the bridge. Yes. Yes.

Josh Lindblom  33:05  
Yes. I love

Scott Allen  33:09  
I love it. Okay. Really quick, before we close out something that's caught your attention lately? Something maybe you've streamed listen to read? What's something that stands out for you in recent times? That kind of caught your attention and could have to do with what we've discussed. It could have nothing to do with what we've discussed.

Josh Lindblom  33:27  
Yeah, I think the biggest thing, I've what I've been reading lately, there's a book written in like the 60s or 70s. It's called Three Miles an Hour God. Okay. So obviously, I'm a busy person. There's not we're all busy. But it's, the thesis of the book is about slowing down. The average human being walks three miles an hour. And when we walk at that pace consistently, we're able to see the things around us. There are some reflections in this book, some essays, and it's been really eye-opening; it kind of goes back to one of the first chapters about development. And it's frustrating, but we develop that like a three-mile-an-hour pace. The development program for life is not an eight-week program for a new you. Yes,

Scott Allen  34:18  
So six-minute abs doesn't work?

Josh Lindblom  34:20  
Six-minute abs do not work. I mean, 35-year abs don't work. I'm still waiting. But just, you know, being in the moment, being able to slow down and recognize and look around and be thankful and grateful for kind of the journey that you're on. But it's been a really eye-opening book, especially as I've added more to my plate with this doctoral program.

Scott Allen  34:46  
Well, I will place that in the show notes. And so listeners can access that. Sir, I'm very, very thankful for your time today. Thank you for stopping by. We're going to talk again in a year I want to hear about your adventures and new insights and new questions that you've come across. Maybe that's what we'll do we'll just explore questions that are some of the big questions. I love it. Okay. Be well, take care. And as always, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Josh Lindblom  35:18  
Thank you. I appreciate it.

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