Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders

Dr. Aditya Simha - Leadership Insights for Wizards and Witches

August 30, 2022 Scott J. Allen Season 1 Episode 138
Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
Dr. Aditya Simha - Leadership Insights for Wizards and Witches
Show Notes Transcript

Dr. Aditya Simha is an Associate Professor of Management at the University of Wisconsin – Whitewater. He obtained his Ph.D. in Business Administration at Washington State University. His research is primarily in business ethics (e.g., ethical leadership, ethical climates, and unethical behavior), healthcare ethics (e.g., moral distress, mental health, and COVID anxiety), and organizational behavior (e.g., burnout, stress, and personality). 

He teaches Leadership Development and Organizational Behavior at the MBA and Undergraduate levels and teaches Micro Issues in Business and Contemporary Research Methods at the Doctoral level. At the postgraduate level, he is an active doctoral dissertation chair. He also regularly presents at international conferences such as the Academy of Management, International Leadership Association, British Academy of Management, Western Academy of Management, and Midwest Academy of Management. 

He has published a book titled Leadership Insights for Wizards and Witches. He has also published articles in journals such as the Academy of Management Perspectives, Journal of Business Ethics, Management Decision, Nursing Ethics, Journal of Business Economics & Management, Family Medicine, and Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine. He currently is an associate editor of Business Ethics, the Environment, and Responsibility serves on the editorial boards of Management Decision and the Journal of Business Ethics Education and is a regular reviewer for journals like the Journal of Business Ethics. 

A Quote From This Episode

  • "I would say that Hermione is probably the better leader among the two of them. And not just because she became the Minister of Magic, even from an early age, Hermione is the one who sees injustice."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

About The International Leadership Association (ILA)

  • The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in the study, practice, and teaching of leadership. Plan for ILA's 24th Global Conference online on October 6 & 7, 2022, and/or onsite in Washington, D.C., October 13-16, 2022. Register for the 24th Global Conference here!

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My Approach to Hosting

  • The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are important views to be aware of. Nothing can replace your own research and exploration.

Connect with Scott Allen

Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.

Emily Allen  0:00  
Okay, everybody welcome to a very special episode of Phronesis today. I have a very fun topic, a very fun guest. But then I also have two co-hosts and some of you have heard their work in the past. Now you're gonna get to know them a little bit more today. First, I'm going to introduce our guests, and then I'm going to introduce our co-hosts, and then we are going to jump into this wild, interesting experiment of a conversation. We'll see how it goes. As always, thanks for checking in. Thanks for exploring this topic of leadership with us, and we are off. Okay, today, I have Dr. Aditya Simha. And he's an Associate Professor of Management at the University of Wisconsin Whitewater. He obtained his Ph.D. in business administration at Wazoo Washington State University, and his research is primarily in the area of business ethics, healthcare ethics, and organizational behavior. He teaches leadership development and organizational behavior at the MBA and undergraduate levels and teaches micro issues in business and contemporary research methods at the doctoral level. At the postgraduate level, he's an active doctoral dissertation chair. He also regularly presented at international conferences such as the Academy of Management, the International Leadership Association, the British Academy of Management, the Western Academy of Management, and the Midwest Academy of Management. He's published a book titled leadership insights for wizards and witches, and that's where our conversation will go today. But he's also published articles in the world's best journals, Academy of Management Perspectives, Journal of Business Ethics, management decision, nursing ethics, and Journal of Business, Economics, and Management to name a few. He currently is an associate editor of business ethics, the environment, and responsibility and serves on the editorial boards of Management Decisions, and the Journal of Business Ethics Education. He is a passionate consumer of fiction books and comic book series, both in book form as well as in movie and television form. This includes the Harry Potter series, Lord of the Rings, anything by PG Woodhouse, the Tintin series, the Hellboy series, the Batman, John Constantine, Superman, Spider-Man, and many others. Additionally, he loves films of all genres and languages and music like The Beatles, Lady Gaga, and AC/DC. He is also a huge fan of professional wrestling and often looks to integrate examples from Pro Wrestling into his work. He lives in Waunakee, Wisconsin, it's the only one in the world. I'm told, with his wife and two sons. They are ages eight and six, and they have a pet otterhound. So, sir, thank you for being with us. We really, really appreciate your time today. We're going to jump in and just a moment. But I also have Emily Allen, who is a co-host today, Emily is about to enter seventh grade. She's 12 years old. Emily, why don't you say hi, and let listeners know a couple of things that you're interested in? What do people need to know about you?

Emily Allen
Hi, I'm Emily. I'm really into musical theater right now. I like making jewelry for my mom, family, friends, and stuff like that. And I love to travel. I love to go places that I have never been to before and that not many people have ever been to before. It's just really fun for me.

Scott Allen
Awesome. Okay. Thank you, Emily. We also have Kate Allen. And Kate Allen, what do people need to know about you? You're also going into seventh grade. You're also 12 years old.

Kate Allen  3:35  
Well, I like chess. I like reading. And I also like doing the New York Times games.

Scott Allen  3:43  
You do like that? I do like that. And because the topic is leadership and we have the two of you here. If we were to say who was a better leader Mom or Dad It's probably...

Kate Allen  3:57  

Emily Allen  3:57  

Adi Simha  3:57  
Well, Scott, you can always edit that out.

Scott Allen  3:59  
Well, Adi, now you know where I stand?

Adi Simha  4:04  
Have them say "Dad" and then splice that in.

Emily Allen  4:08  
Well, sir, before we jump into this book about wizards and witches and the Harry Potter series and leadership, and really the girls have come up with some of the questions that we shared with you. Is there anything else that listeners need to know about you?

Adi Simha  4:21  
know, that was a very solid bio. In fact, you know, when I sent you that bio, I wasn't sure if it was too long or not. But thanks for reading most of it.

Emily Allen  4:32  
Great. And I saw some connections, you know, the Beatles for the girls for their birthday this year. We gave them their first comedy show and their first concert. So we went to see Paul McCartney and Syracuse. Just a magical evening, Emily. What was your favorite song?

Well, I love to the pyrotechnics for a liberal lead die but hey Jude, the cell phones were just like stars. It was amazing.

Awesome. And Kate, what was your favorite part?

Kate Allen  4:58  
Probably Mr. Kate It goes the pyrotechnics, can edit that, right? They were like lasers everywhere. And it was super cool.

Emily Allen  5:09  
It was a wonderful show. It was like two and a half hours. You know, Paul McCartney is 80 years old; he's still just cranking it out.

Adi Simha  5:16  
He is amazing. We attended a concert of his in Milwaukee a few years ago. And I love the fact that he started on time. There were no opening bands. It was just him 2.5-3 hours.

Emily Allen  5:26  
Yes, just incredible. Absolutely incredible. So we have some common themes here. Love literature, the love for music, love for film, and television series. Let's jump in. So these two have identified a couple of questions. Now, before we jump in, let's get some context regarding this project. What's the impetus of writing a book about leadership and the Harry Potter series, this is really cool.

Adi Simha  5:52  
I came across this call for book proposals. And it was in a series by Emerald Publications to series is called Effective Leadership Through Popular Culture. When I saw that, I, you know, they already had two books that were set to be released, one on Lord of the Rings and the other on Star Wars. So when I saw that I was like, Hey, I should write one on Harry Potter. The reviewers liked it. They said, Yeah, why don't you write it? And that's what I did.

Emily Allen  6:21  
Well, and with an eight year old and a six year old in the house, I imagine what maybe are they a little too young for Harry Potter yet?

Adi Simha  6:27  
So when I wrote the book, they were when I started writing the book, there were six and four at the time. Yeah, so really, two young. So yeah, at the time, they were young, but now they're we made them watch the first movie. And I think the second movie is we'll make them watch the second movie.

Emily Allen  6:47  
Well, as a connoisseur of comic books, you know, these two young women have been just voracious when it came to graphic novels. So we moved from kind of children's books, right into graphic novels, which, literally all over the house, and you are consuming these graphic novels of voraciously, but really the first book series that the two of you really jumped into, and I think it's like a million plus words. Is that accurate? In a series, I mean, they plowed through this series, didn't you?

Yeah, I fell in love with it. It was really great. And it was a fun book to start out with. 

Kate Allen  7:28  
As in all cases, I let her do it first.

Emily Allen  7:32  
So Emily started reading them first. And then Kate kind of picked up on it. And both of you just plowed through the series, and then we watched the movies. And these two have developed some questions for you.

Adi Simha  7:42  
Oh, yeah. No, I love the fact I love those questions because they show that you've read the books and watched the movies. That's a lot of people, they simply have only watched the movies, and then they don't quite get the entire context. So you guys are awesome.

Emily Allen  7:58  
With most series, the books are just so much better than the movies.

Adi Simha  8:02  
I completely agree. 

Emily Allen  8:05  
The movies were Harry Potter, they were magical. They were wonderful. But the books,

Adi Simha  8:09  
The books are at a different level altogether. 

Emily Allen  8:14  
Paint a totally different picture in your mind.

Kate Allen  8:16  
And peeves, the ghost, he wasn't even in the movies.

Adi Simha  8:20  
I know. A lot of characters, they just dropped them.

Emily Allen  8:27  
For listeners, I am nowhere near this depth of knowledge around Harry Potter. So that's why I have the two ringers today. They've come up with some questions. Kate, why don't you start with your first question for Adi, and let's see how he responds to this? It's, I think it's about Dumbledore and ethics. We've got a business ethics professor here. So this is going to or at least a scholar of business ethics. So let's see what he has to say. Go ahead, cater.

Kate Allen  8:53  
All right. Well, in the books, Dumbledore lied to Harry throughout the series or at least withheld the truth greatly. Even during the first book, Harry was curious about it. But it wasn't even partially revealed until the fifth, and even later, Snape has to tell him because Dumbledore was dead, and Snape was doubting the new Harry had to die, or at least get incredibly close to defeating the dark to defeat the Dark Lord. Was it ethical of him to hide the truth about someone else, even if it was for a good cause?

Adi Simha  9:23  
That is actually one of the biggest criticisms that people make of Dumbledore. I've seen a lot of that sometimes; when you go to a Harry Potter page, you'll see comments. Oh, Dumbledore wasn't that great. He hid the truth, or he, you know, he put Harry into danger. But I think you can explain part of it by considering that. Dumbledore had to do that. If he told Harry the entire truth. And Harry became aware that you know, there was potentially a Horcrux inside of him, then why Underlord would have found out, and then the task of destroying all the Horcruxes would have become a lot more difficult. For a long time, Voldemort did not know that they knew about the Horcruxes. So that's why Dumbledore had to. He didn't lie exactly. But like you said, he didn't tell the entire truth, hinted

Kate Allen  10:22  
He was lying by omission?

Emily Allen  10:23  
Well, that's an interesting question. Was it a lie? I mean, was he on some level trying to protect the larger hole and protect? In some ways, as I understand it, was he trying to protect Harry in some small way?

Adi Simha  10:37  
Yes, it was a bit of both. He was trying to protect the larger goal, which was to get rid of Voldemort. But he was also trying to protect Harry, because, you know, not just because of the Horcrux. But as it is, everyone was out to get Harry. People knew that Harry had a Horcrux inside of him that would have made it to the target even bigger.

Emily Allen  11:01  
I mean, on one level, what's really fun about this series is that both Harry and our leads, and some of the faculty in Hogwarts, they're placed as many leaders in these ethical dilemmas as to how to proceed and how to move forward. Right. Is that a theme in the book that you cover that you talk about? Did you discuss it?

Adi Simha  11:22  
I talk about ethical leadership, and I also talk about servant leadership and authentic leadership; they all have elements of ethics in them. But I don't specifically have a chapter on ethical dilemmas. But if you have interwoven throughout the book, I've given examples of, you know, like this very question. I've written a little bit about it that Dumbledore was, you can accuse them that right You didn't give, you weren't completely honest. But then, in the grand scheme of things, it worked out because he always had a backup. I mean, I write about that in the book that you have to have a backup; if you have a backup, it's not necessary that your backup knows that they're the backup. So you have a bunch of backups, which I mean, if you notice like towards the end, Harry starts doing the same thing. He tells Neville, see the snake kill it, you know, tell him why. He just created it. I mean, he realizes that right at that point is like, Oh, I'm behaving like Dumbledore. But it's necessary because the larger mission is to make sure that, you know, the big will and get decimated.

Emily Allen  12:31  
And I think leaders are placed in that position all the time where they either can't share information, or it's not in the best interest of the whole to share. And it's it's a terrible situation to be in. But that's happening in, in governments and in corporate America, all over throughout time. And so the ethics of this series is I love Kate, that you picked up on that that you asked that question that was going through your mind. I think it's just absolutely wonderful. And Emily, you have a first question about Harry not having a father figure. Would you share that one?

Harry never really had a father figure to lead him who didn't die. He had father figures, but they all just kind of died, which is kind of sad. Do you think that the fact that he practically raised himself impacted his leadership skills?

Adi Simha  13:24  
That's a very great point because all of his father figures they eventually, you know, I guess it's not a healthy thing to be.

Scott Allen  13:33  
As a father, I don't like to hear this. Yeah, take to the bucket.

Adi Simha  13:41  
But for your, you know, for the, for the second part of your question, I think it basically speaks towards self-leadership. Like sometimes, you might not have a mentor that is long-term; you might have a mentor for a short period of time. But that short period of time is enough to give you the confidence that you need. For instance, if you consider looping, looping was he was only the teacher for one, you know, one particular year, but that period was enough. He taught Harry the Patronus charm, which is probably, I think that's the charm that Harry used the most. I mean, the entire series, he had to use it a lot. I mean, to find out the mentors and being, you know, when he goes back using the time travel device, and he has to Yeah, he has to use it on himself, basically. So yeah.

Emily Allen  14:34  
He also was very fun of [insert name of spell], it's you know, it's [insert name of another spell]

I feel like I'm at a Star Trek convention all of a sudden, okay, so like a Harry Potter. Okay, in Episode Seven, scene three, yeah. Okay. But I think that's a very great point that at times we are going to have individuals enter our life who teach us they have lessons they have, they have advice that can help us along the way. And even though Harry may not have had a consistent father figure, he had mentors and guides throughout the series

Adi Simha  15:19  
Different mentors for different parts of his development. Although you could also consider Arthur Weasley and the Imami, if not a father figure at least an uncle of sorts, and he doesn't die. 

Emily Allen  15:40  
So at least one father figure, I feel like I'm in a Disney film, right mom or dad or both died at the very beginning. So I think that's wise. And I also think we could go to kind of some peer mentorship, too, because people like Hermione, as I understand it, at least she was a mentor for Harry throughout the series. Would you agree?

Adi Simha  15:59  
Absolutely. She was probably the most level-headed of the three. Throughout the series, Hermione is the one who is the most dependable.

Kate Allen  16:09  
Yeah, speaking of Hermione, I have another question about her. Who do you think in the end became a better leader, Hermione or Harry, Harry went on to be the head Auror for the Ministry of Magic. Well, in her mind, he went on to be the Minister of Magic, leading the entire wizarding world.

Adi Simha  16:29  
I would say that Hermione is probably the better leader among the two of them. And not just because she became the Minister of Magic, even from an early age, Hermione is the one who sees injustice. Now, like the house elf situation, nobody else sees that. I mean, how Harry himself does not see that, you know, he sort of gets persuaded by Ron, "Oh, the house elves like it, they like working for wizards, they like doing whatever we tell them," that Hermione is the one like, "no, they don't like it. They're just conditioned to that." So Hermione, you know, she starts that view, that group, right? The SPEW, never catches on. And I'm sure as Minister of Magic, she probably puts in actual laws that help in the upliftment of other nonhuman magical creatures. So I would say yeah, Hermione, for sure, is probably going to be the leader that has a bigger impact. Hmm. Harry is a good leader, but not to the extent of Hermione. I think Hermione's leadership is likely to be more long-lasting.

Emily Allen  17:39  
Emily, how would you answer that question? Do you agree? Do you think Hermione is probably the better leader?

Adi Simha 
Yeah, of course, she saw things that other people didn't. She caught on to things. She was always really smart with her leadership. She always knew who to trust, stuff like that. Kid, what do you think? Even in the first book, she showed signs of very high intelligence, she solved the riddle that only a practical thinker could solve. And most people in the wizarding world are not practical thinker thinkers. So that makes her stand out. And seemingly, that makes her show more intelligence generally. And going back to the Ministry of Magic, I actually have a question regarding Cornelius Fudge, 

Scott Allen
Look at these two with these seamless transitions into the next questions!

Adi Simha  18:32  
Yes, their segues... 

Emily Allen  18:36  
Cornelius Fudge told the public that all was well. And Voldemort had not returned. This is in the fifth book. He accused Harry and Dumbledore of lying despite evidence that they were telling the truth. Under different circumstances, might this tactic have worked? Lying?

Adi Simha  18:55  
Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I mean, that particular question has so much real-life perils. You know, when the pandemic became began, there were a lot of countries where the leaders were like, oh, yeah, it's not a big issue. It's, we have it under control nothing, because the problem is just a common cold, you know, eat a potato or something. And we'll take care of pushing all those pseudo-scientific things out there. That is exactly the 5g approach. And you know, a bunch of them lost their power because of that, because they refuse to acknowledge the reality. It's what fudge did is pretty much the ostrich method, right? You bury your head, and then you pretend like there aren't any lions around to eat you up. But you know, the lions know that you're right there. They probably wait for you. All right, bring your head up, and I'm right here. So I don't think the 5g approach is a good approach to use. If there's a problem, simply ignoring it is not going to make it go away. It could happen, but that is going to be completely luck-based, which is not something anyone should depend on. If you have an exam, you have to prepare for it. And there is the chance that the exam to get postponed or something. But if you're waiting for that chance that binary, that might not come.

Emily Allen  20:17  
I mean, it sounds like it might have been an approach that could work theoretically. But it's not sustainable, right?

Adi Simha  20:24  
No, no, no. tangible and not predictable.

Emily Allen  20:27  
Yep. For sure.

It did work a little bit until the end of the book, and then it kind of... 

Kate Allen  20:35  
...exploded in his face.

Scott Allen  20:36  
Yeah, people found out, right? Just like the pandemic, people found out that it was more than a common cold that people were dying. So, in theory, it worked for a little while, but then it wasn't sustainable, and people found out, and you said, it blew up in his face.

Emily Allen
And it just kind of like exploded all over him, and he had to resign, which is pretty much, I think, the last thing he wanted.

Scott Allen
Okay, what's another question that you have for Adi right now?

Kate Allen  21:03  
Well, Dobby sacrificed himself for Harry, Hermione, and Ron. I see Dobby as a leader. So is the ability to sacrifice a good leadership quality

Adi Simha  21:17  
You know, Dobby, Dobby's an awesome character because when Dobby dies, that is perhaps one of the most tragic moments in the entire book series. I felt more I guess I felt sad when Dobby died than when serious died. I was gunning for the electrics when that happened. Somebody has to take her. Justice for Dobby. And then Molly Weasley did she said the only swear word in the books and just killed her. Right there. It was. It was amazing. Oh, yeah, that was I'm reading that part. Yeah. Like amazing. And that you're like you're not killing any more of my children.

Emily Allen  22:05  
I have like new respect for Molly because of this. You killed Oh, yeah. 

Adi Simha  22:11  
No, no, no, Molly's actually super admirable. 

Emily Allen  22:14  
Molly killed the person who killed seriously and also killed Dobby. One of my favorite things about Dobby was that he was so ugly. He was so cute. And it's hard to get this world, and I love it...

Scott Allen
Well, Dobby also didn't follow a direct command, correct at some point. 

Kate Allen
Oh, I have a question about that

Scott Allen  22:36  
Okay, go for it.

Adi Simha  22:38  
Oh, before we get to that question, I realized I didn't answer your actual question about sacrifice; I think yes, at certain times, a leader must sacrifice it. I mean, they don't necessarily have to sacrifice their lives. But they might have to sacrifice something. They might have to sacrifice vacation time, or they might have to sacrifice, you know, a particular like, I guess, like a bonus or something, for the better good.

Emily Allen  23:08  
Yep. For sure.

Adi Simha  23:10  
It's tied in with servant leadership. So yeah, I mean, I think sacrifice is big in that particular,

Emily Allen  23:16  
and servant leadership, Kate and Emily is really kind of the idea. A very simplistic version of it, is that the leader is there to serve the people, not necessarily be the person on top of the hierarchy, that they are serving others so that they can do their work and accomplish what they want to accomplish. So it's a little bit of a different approach to leadership, that it's almost that you are there to serve others, not for them to serve. 

Kind of like the basement of a building. It's there to keep the building in the ground in case something happens,

Scott Allen  23:50  
Like a strong foundation. Yeah, good!

Emily Allen  23:53  
Okay. And the ethics of Harry Potter, there are some big dilemmas. One large one would be Dobby's dilemma, and in Book Two, he went against his master's wishes and warned Harry Potter for the greater good. Is an action like this still ethical?

Adi Simha  24:08  
That's a fantastic question. A very nuanced, you know, because a lot of times, you might have to do something, you might have to follow a particular order, which you don't consider as an ethical order of sorts, but you go against it. So it's, in many ways, it's almost like a whistleblower situation. You have something wrong going on in your organization or in your team. And your boss has told you, hey, you have to do this, do it, but you know that it's a bad thing to do. It's the wrong thing to do. So you go against it. I think in situations where ethical principles are getting violated, you definitely have to speak out, so what I think I don't think Dobby did anything unethical in disobeying Malfoy. Someone could argue that like, oh, you disobeyed Him Was your Astor you were supposed to follow him. Dobby. Technically he followed that because he never told Harry any of the reasons he just, he tried he tried to stop Harry from going there to protect Harry sort of backfired because Harry got into trouble with his uncle and aunt but, you know, starting from there and then they got it, they got Snape to give that nasty little, you know, lecture like, Oh, you're going to get expelled? You know, that sort of thing. But yeah, I don't think Dobby did anything on it. I think he did the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing could mean disobeying a director,

Scott Allen 25:38  
I think it's important to ask the question and to be thoughtful about how you decide to move forward. And I did another podcast with a gentleman and he said that ethics is a team sport (Sean Hannah). So when you find yourself in some of those situations that are difficult and hard, is there someone you can talk to and have a conversation with? What is the right path forward? What should I do? Should I disobey this order? Because I think it's unethical, or should I obey the order? Because that's what I'm supposed to do. It's complex, but you all are; you're catching some really, really fun questions. We have time for like two more. So Kate, maybe pick your next best question or the one that you're most curious about to hear from an expert. And then Emily, you'll do the same. And then Adi, how I'd like to kind of wind down our time is, are there some things you'd like to highlight from the text that you want listeners to know about? And then maybe that'll kind of lay out our next few moments? So Kate, what's something you want to know?

Kate Allen
Okay, I have two questions that I really want to do. 

Scott Allen  26:40  
Okay. Okay. 

Kate Allen  26:41  
The first one is pretty quick. Who's your favorite character, and what makes them an effective leader?

Adi Simha  26:47  
I don't have a favorite character that's continued to stay my favorite. I mean, you know, I've read their characters I like, but it's hard for me to pick one and claim that that individual is my favorite character. So I really liked Lupin. I really like Dumbledore. I really like you know, Hermione I also like Ron, because I think the movies did Ron a big disservice. They made him out to look like a cranky Joker, you know, sorts, but in the books, he's so much more than that. He's, he's his best friend. And I mean, he does get jealous here and there. But overall, he's super dependable. So I think the movies did run a terrible disservice. So someone hasn't read the books and, you know, only watches the movies, their impression of Ron is not going to be very accurate. It's meant to be sort of, okay, the way I'm talking, I guess wrong is one of my favorite characters.

Emily Allen  27:48  
But Emily, who's your favorite character?

Probably. Mr. Weasley,

Scott Allen  27:52  
Mr. Weasley. Okay. How come?

Emily Allen  27:55  
She's so obsessed with human stuff? And actually, one of my favorite quotes is from him. This is in the I think it's the last book. And Mrs. Weasley is trying to get inside. And Mr. Weasley is going if you really my wife and what's my dearest ambition. She sighs and says, to figure out how airplanes get up.

And who's your favorite? You're saying like You're like on the side a little bit that it's hard to kind of choose? Yeah. What do you think who are who are a couple of your favorites?

Kate Allen  28:31  
Okay. Probably Luna, like Luna. I have a question about Luna. Yeah, no question. Yeah. Do you Luna? Okay. Is Luna crazy? Or is she brilliant? Because she was a leader or at least admirable for being a total weirdo. Okay, with herself. She did this against the greater public opinion and bullies who treated her poorly. This does make her a leader, right?

Adi Simha  29:04  
Luna is a fascinating character in the book series. And I would not call her crazy. I would say that she is extremely high on the open to new experiences dimension. She is open to everything. She has she listened to you, she'll acknowledge you. You might have a wacky theory. But she's okay. She's chilling. Alright, if you have a theory, let's go check it out. All those exotic animals that she keeps talking about, you know, the ones that they believe don't exist, who knows they might exist even in our nonmagical reality. You know, there are animals out there that people thought did not exist. Are you familiar with the okapi? No. It's an animal found in Africa. It looks like a deer, but it has zebra stripes, and it's got a long neck. It's almost like a giraffe, sort of peeking. Not as big as a giraffe. It's similar similarly proportioned, people thought that animals did not exist. So when some, you know, one of the explorers brought it back, they were like, Oh, you're just mixed up a bunch of animals together. And they found out that the Okapi actually exists. But who knows, maybe the Crumple-Horned Snork act might be out there somewhere, and your Luna might be the person to go discover it. But having said that, I also think that if Luna were, we have people like Luna here in our world, you know, we have we have leaders who have some really great visionary ideas, which seemed wacky, there is a chance that they could pay off, someone comes up and tells you to collect the tears of a peacock, and that'll cure cancer, you know, that? Probably will not work. So you have to be, I guess, a little cautious. It's good to have an open mind. You should also be able to recognize that maybe something isn't going to work. So So, yeah, Luna is a character. But the one thing I do love about Luna is her complete lack of prejudice. She is not prejudiced against anyone. 

Scott Allen  31:10  
Well, it sounds like she's eccentric. But like you said, she's open, and she's open to everyone. And I think those that are certainly good qualities of a leader at times to be willing to listen to even kind of some extreme ideas or some ideas that seem like they're out there. Did she influence others? Did she get others to follow her?

Kate Allen  31:32  
Well, kinda, well, a little she kept talking about [insert name of mystical animal] and [insert name of another mystical animal]  or whatever hunting or come dingers she kept talking about them, like they were really good, like, they are real. And people like NO 

Scott Allen  31:50  
Were they real? 

Kate Allen  31:51  
Oh, that's debatable. 

Emily Allen  31:54  
She's the one who came up with the idea to write their strolls to the Ministry of Magic. She and Harry could only see these invisible beings, and she's like, how about all of us just go on these things and ride to the Ministry of Magic?

Scott Allen
Okay, Emily, what's one final question you want to ask?

Emily Allen
On leadership terms? Do you agree with me? That book Ginny is far superior to movie to movie Ginny is kind of soft compared to book Ginny?

Adi Simha  32:29  
I think the book anyone is so much better than the movie version of whoever. One of the things that I simply cannot forgive is how they portrayed Dumbledore in the part in the Goblet of Fire where he's yelling at Harry Harry, did you put your name? The real Dumbledore would never yell like that he was such a calm individual.

Emily Allen  32:55  
It's like a sleeping cat compared to a tiger in that scene. So in the first one, it literally says, "Dumbledore asked very calmly, did you guess the Goblet of Fire?" Pins him against the wall?

Adi Simha  33:11  
Bangs him against the wall. And ya no,

Scott Allen  33:15  
Emily, I'm learning about you here. You have hope phrases, and you have a lot memorized, my friend.

Adi Simha  33:21  
I couldn't use any of the phrases in the book. I had a lot of, you know, we would run into copyright issues. A lot of battle phrasing, yes.

Scott Allen  33:35  
Okay, well, Adi, why don't you if you would just kind of highlight a couple of things that stand up for you in this project, maybe that you would like to emphasize? So, listeners have an opportunity to buy the book to use it in their courses, a very unique, fun, interesting way to approach the topic of leadership, anything you want listeners to know before we wind down for the day.

Adi Simha  33:57  
So again, the book is sort of the context is Harry Potter. Essentially, it's a leadership book. If you read through it, even if you don't know who Harry Potter is or who the characters are, there is an appendix at the end; you can always slip back to it and figure out who the characters are. I've covered enough that I think the book should be might be a good book to use in a discussion-based class for a semester. I would love to be in a class like that myself. But yes, maybe I should offer it I should talk to my

Scott Allen  34:33  
Well, again, you know, you have characters that kind of move in and out of being some of your favorites, and you have ethical dilemmas, and you have the whole process of influencing others throughout. It just weaves throughout the series, people trying to influence the behavior of other people, good, bad, and ugly. And I mean, I think it's just a great tool, or it's a great way to get to some of these concepts. The Big Five have personality traits that can be a little bit, I don't know, cold, but you add in some flavor and some color like some of these characters, and all of a sudden, they come alive in a very, very different way your explanation of Luna being open to new experiences, right? I mean that it just breathes life and energy into the topics, I think, in a really fun, interesting, and engaging way. Final question. If you were to write another book about another series on leadership, is there another series that you think is ripe for exploration when it comes to connecting the topic of leadership and ethics to x? What would that be Adi? What do you think?

Adi Simha  35:39  
I just submitted a book proposal nice, like a couple of days ago in this very same series, and the book proposal, I will tell you the title; okay, tell me what series it is. Okay. The title is slaying the vampires, werewolves, and demons off ineffective leadership. Woohoo. Can you guess what the book or series it is?

Scott Allen  36:03  
I think I have a guess. But I don't

Adi Simha  36:05  
I think you'll be able to guess I think the girls are probably too young.

Scott Allen  36:09  
I don't know. I don't know if they can. Can you think of a series about vampires, werewolves,

Kate Allen  36:15  

Scott Allen  36:16  
and demons?

Kate Allen  36:17  
Well, she's a demon [pointing to Emily]

Scott Allen  36:21  
We better stop before we get into an argument here. Okay, reveal it to listeners. I have an idea. But I want you to be able to say it.

Adi Simha  36:29  
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That was my favorite show when I was a teenager. So well, you

Scott Allen  36:35  
know what? These two? Probably we should probably kind of check that out. That's probably an option. Right?

Adi Simha  36:42  
Um, I would probably wait till they're 14, maybe.

Scott Allen  36:45  
Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the recommendation.

Adi Simha  36:51  
Yeah, I would just wait a couple more years. 

Emily Allen  36:54  
Well, we really, really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much, Emily, as we close out, is there anything that you want to underscore when it comes to Harry Potter and leadership? Is there anything that comes to mind for you? Kate, I'm gonna go to you with the same question.

Emily Allen
Well, I always think of all the characters as having these traits that are good, and all these characters are just magical and wonderful. And now, but thanks to the movies, I cannot. I cannot imagine Harry Potter's anybody but Daniel Radcliffe.

Scott Allen  37:27  
Okay, that was your opportunity for a final statement, Kater anything come up for you? Is this a class you'd want to be in where we talk about Harry Potter and leadership? Class? Yeah.

Emily Allen  37:39  
Give us a chance to brag about all the stuff we know about honors. That's true.

Scott Allen
Would you like to go to a class where you talked about Harry? Or you love Rick...

Kate Allen  37:48  
the Rick Riordan - Percy Jackson Yeah,

Scott Allen  37:51  
That'd be a fun class to go to.  Going to those and watching the movies and discussing the books, watching

Kate Allen  37:58  
The movies, Percy Jackson movies are even worse than the Harry Potter movies. 

Emily Allen  38:02  
And the Harry Potter movies were mediocre.

Scott Allen  38:05  
already. Thank you so much for putting up with this experiment today. We really, really appreciate it.

Adi Simha  38:11  
Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Kate. I have a question. Are you twins? 

Emily Allen  38:16  

Kate Allen  38:17  

Adi Simha  38:17  
Okay. Beginning when you said seventh grade, 12 years old, okay.

Emily Allen  38:24  
Yes, we were at the 20-week ultrasound, and the tech was, was looked at my wife and me and said, "So you have one baby? "And we said, "Yes!" And she said, "Well, there's two in here." And for it forever change the course but in an incredibly awesome way. So well, we really, really appreciate your time today, sir. I'm gonna put all this information into the show notes, so listeners know how to access the book. And we will have you back as soon as we will talk, Buffy, and it will probably be about a year and a half. Maybe these two will have explored that series by that point.

Adi Simha  38:59  
It'll probably be a little longer than that because maybe two and a half years Yeah.

Kate Allen  39:06  
You kind of gotta us hooked here, so.

Emily Allen  39:10  
We're gonna we're gonna watch

Scott Allen  39:13  
they're gonna be 30 Still co-hosting episodes with, you know, different series so

Adi Simha  39:18  
That'll be so fun.

Scott Allen  39:21  
Okay, sir, be well; thank you so much for being with us today

Adi Simha  39:24  
Thank you so much, Scott. Thank you both

Emily/Kate Allen  39:26  
Bye bye.

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